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Is 1045 an acceptable gear material?

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  • #16
    JT I will say this much --- some of the smaller 1045 gears I heated and dunked got damn hard - one got so hard it was extremely difficult to machine with sharp new carbide, that's getting pretty tough, it's also why I think hardening is an art,,, what did I do different to this one gear in comparison to the others? nothing, absolutely nothing --- the guru's could pick it apart but I don't have a clue --- yeah maybe it was the first into the oil vat so had the most shock --- if that's the case why did not the others go in stages of hardness? again have no idea and I heated them up to the same color chart brightness --- again, have no idea.

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    • #17
      Size can affect hardening. Big stuff does not cool as fast, even at the surface, so it does not get as hard.

      Warm oil vs cold makes a difference.

      If you want a process to be consistent, you have to have all the variables under control, temperatures, size of part, size vs amount of oil, etc, etc.
      1601

      Keep eye on ball.
      Hashim Khan

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      • #18
        makes allot of sense ...

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        • #19
          Could have been one thing. Could have been a number of things. Temperature of the bath. Size of bath. Content of the bath. Uniformity of part temperature. Time spent at transformation temp. If there is any moisture trapped in the ATF, it could have actually formed tiny air bubbles around the part and insulated it enough to not cool quickly enough.Is the bath still, or is it circulated? And on, and on, and on. Making something hard is stupidly easy. Heat Treating materials properly with uniformity is not trivial. There is a lot that needs to be kept track of and controlled to insure proper results.

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          • #20
            X2 the size of the parts. The steel company catalogs tell you the size that will get to max hardness. Usually something like 2.5" round, and parts bigger than that will get progressively softer because it's still hot in the middle while the outside is quenching.

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            • #21
              This all makes allot of sense --- these little gears are tough --- in fact with all the high pressure use they still have their "hob marks" on their running surfaces, as soon as JT stated that - it made sense - and then to hear it from you it just confirms it --- I never got the big gear as hard due to its incredible mass, I do think this material will be acceptable, and perhaps the next go around I will have it professionally heat treated - I know a place that I took some O-1 too and it was far better than the job I did with the same stuff and parts and I have a friend who has a heat treat oven - we went by specs, but they do this for a living and I don't ...

              next time the whole planetary system in fact the whole galaxy for that matter is going off to the people who know - 1045 will work - it already has - I just want better more controlled longevity results...

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              • #22
                ZK, I do not have a circulated bath but I do try to be aware of it while dunking a part and stir things up move it around esp. right off the start --- but the larger gear is like 4" OD and only so much I can do - so just dunk up and down rapidly - all submersed but still no side movement like the little gears... yet another problem that the extra mass introduces into the equation,

                plus - only about two gallons of ATF to start with --- and did not want to overheat it with the big gear from the beginning - so did all the little ones - so the big one dipped in somewhat pre-heated oil - yet another F-up im sure...

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                • #23
                  outside observation from hillbilly heat treating --- all the parts iv heat treated in oil have a carbon scale after the process --- carbon is a great insulator --- not exactly what you want, so would it not be best to use oil of extreme heat resistance ? im thinking synthetic ATF or engine oil - also thin would be the ticket... I wonder about certain cooking oils as avocado is rated very high I also think peanut oil is too,

                  suggestions?

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                  • #24
                    4"? That's not really that large. ( but yeah... it can be surprising how much heat gets retained at that size ) You can do this. Just need more oil and larger container, likely. You're doing right to keep it moving. If you can get a larger container and more oil, give as much side movement as vertical. Like a figure eight that also goes vertical. This way you'll be keeping the media flowing over the surface of the material, helping to transfer the heat off.

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                    • #25
                      ZK this was a while back so forgive my memory lapse --- I machined this internal gear --- took away quite a bit of it's mass on the OD, also had pre-drilled holes --- I had used those holes to run generic threaded screws through and attached those screws to two center plates with a center hole through both the plates - I then ran a bolt and nut to sandwich the two plates, then put the bolt end in my de-walt --- used speed one to not only heat the gear uniformly with my friends torch but then gunned the drill whilst dunking --- thinking the teeth of the inner gear was my main concern and creating a hydraulic fan with them would be totally beneficial,,, I now remember this cuz my friend was laughing at me and saying "aren't you taking this a bit too seriously" lol

                      I did the best I could - but I think the fluid was already pre-warmed from the smaller parts...

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                      • #26
                        4-inch? I would want to see more oil as ZK said. Probably at least 5 gallons. FWIW it is known that brine gives a harsher quench (faster cooling, harder parts) BUT is harder to control it.

                        Maybe do the smaller gears in oil and the big ring in brine?

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                        • #27
                          AK - I'd honestly lean toward not enough oil and ( based upon your description ) spinning it too fast. ( believe it or not ) It's possible that the oil was prevented from being in contact long enough to properly cool the part quickly enough.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
                            AK - I'd honestly lean toward not enough oil and ( based upon your description ) spinning it too fast. ( believe it or not ) It's possible that the oil was prevented from being in contact long enough to properly cool the part quickly enough.
                            Wow --- should be the same principle as windchill factor but maybe I was introducing cavitation or something, cavitation is wanting to happen anyways due to the heat creating oil vapor, I will say this - it looked very good in the pale as far as acting like an "oil fan" with really no bubbles...

                            I just thought of something - maybe the pro's have a pressure chamber - that would eliminate the vapor barrier, ehhh -- how would you get the part in there and then pressurize that quick... never mind...

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                            • #29
                              You will get a nasty surprise one day for not tempering. Tempering reduces HARDNESS, while INCREASING Toughness... now you want tough in gears, don't want the teeth coming off like chiclets..

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 754 View Post
                                You will get a nasty surprise one day for not tempering. Tempering reduces HARDNESS, while INCREASING Toughness... now you want tough in gears, don't want the teeth coming off like chiclets..
                                1045 is already tough without being tempered because it cannot reach full hardness in the first place. It doesn't have enough carbon to do so. I would be surprised if he could get over 50 RC with it. If it was a high-carbon steel, or a tool steel, then yeah he would have that to deal with. Some common examples of 1045 in everyday use include pickup truck axles and grade-8 bolts.

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