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  • #16
    Originally posted by vpt View Post
    Everyone will get it eventually. Yes maybe slow it down and give some time and room in hospitals but at what cost? The economy is done. Just get back to work, let people get sick, whoever dies dies, lives lives, get on with life!
    That's a rather flippant way to look at it it. It's a little more real when you are in your 70s and have parents in their 80s and 90s. More than 1 out of 7 in that age range die from it so "just let them die" would mean someone in my immediate family will die if we "just let it happen".

    I'd rather lose my money than my brothers, wife, children or parents.

    Dan
    At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

    Location: SF East Bay.

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    • #17
      It seems the people advocating letting the virus roam do not seem to grasp that that in that situation there will be no healthcare whatsoever for the next six months. So all first aid needs, cancers, appendicitis, etc will lead to unnecessary death.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by danlb View Post

        That's a rather flippant way to look at it it. It's a little more real when you are in your 70s and have parents in their 80s and 90s. More than 1 out of 7 in that age range die from it so "just let them die" would mean someone in my immediate family will die if we "just let it happen".

        I'd rather lose my money than my brothers, wife, children or parents.

        Dan
        The cold reality is that all of your brothers, wife, children and parents are one day going to die. Yeah, I"ve got a mom in her late 80s and she figures she only has a couple more years anyway. I might make it, I might not. Fun fact - in the last 60 days 600 Americans have died from coronavirus and 460,000 or so have died from other causes. Roughly 1300 are going to die TOMORROW from illness caused by tobacco consumption.

        So it's pretty easy to take the "moral high road" when you have plenty of assets and can see this through for months. I've pulled out a couple of firearms from the safe because what do you think is going to happen when those people who have run out of money from being out of work decide that feeding their kids is kind of important to them

        I'm with VPT, when things are supposed to go back to normal in a month, exactly how does that work when a hundred people with minimal symptoms put us right back to where we are now?

        Steve


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        • #19
          Originally posted by SteveF View Post

          I'm with VPT, when things are supposed to go back to normal in a month, exactly how does that work when a hundred people with minimal symptoms put us right back to where we are now?

          Steve
          You are kidding yourself if think things will go back to normal in a month. Also you answered your own question.
          Tom - Spotsylvania, VA

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          • #20
            Originally posted by loose nut View Post

            Since corona, SARS, bird flu and MESA virus's, most of the serious epidemics that have hit the world over the last 20 years, all came from China maybe the world should nuc China to save the rest of us. It is doubtful China will clean up its act, or it's streets.
            and the small pox that wiped out, ooh, 80% of the indigenous population of the Americas was brought by Europeans. So?

            I think we'll probably see a natural experiment play out over the next few months over who is right - the curve flatteners or the "well everyone's going to die at some anyway"ers. Public health response to covid19 seems to be broadly split, sadly, along rural vs. urban and red vs. blue lines.

            Besides, it's worth reflecting on what's happening in Italy, which arguably went the "we'll be fine, it's just the flu" approach. Triage is occuring in hospitals where old people or those less likely to have a long and productive life if they recover are being removed from ventilators and left to die, so that those ventilators can be used on younger people. Hospitals in the north where it's hitting hardest are losing staff to the virus, so their ability to cope is further impaired.

            Perhaps the US needs a good few thousands of people to die before people take this seriously. Oh wait, that's what Italy did...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ikdor View Post
              It seems the people advocating letting the virus roam do not seem to grasp that that in that situation there will be no healthcare whatsoever for the next six months. So all first aid needs, cancers, appendicitis, etc will lead to unnecessary death.
              In six months time there won't be any heath care system because there won't be any economy to support one. Either way there are going to be a lot of dead people, maybe a lot more dead the way this is playing out now then from the virus.

              Matt, Yes the Europeans small pox wiped out the Indians and the plague from the middle east wiped out most of Europe and other plagues wiped out other people before that, what your point. This is now not the past and China is a breeding ground for sickness, with all the money they take in there is little going on to change the way things are done there and illnesses keep on coming. The Chinese people are the first to suffer. If they don't fix it then maybe action will have to be taken against them, permanent quarantine maybe or economic sanctions, otherwise the next plague maybe a lot worse than this one.
              Last edited by loose nut; 03-25-2020, 10:25 AM.
              The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

              Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

              Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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              • #22
                i don't have a link, my co worker read the story.

                looks like researchers are starting to take a look at other viruses in bats. like.. 500 or more of them just waiting to cross over, entire families of viruses we didn't know about.

                might not be the worst option to just delete them from existance, globally.

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                • #23
                  Sh*t is about to get real also here in Finland.
                  Politics and local "CDC" are worried about large numbers of working-age population needing hospital care and after Finland announced that we will close our borders 200 000 Finns have been returning back to homeland from all across world, mostly S-Europe :P
                  Airplanes(incubators) full of people form Spain and France, arriving to here with no clear instructions about quarantine, no control of any sort. Really, how hard this can be?

                  Couple of days ago local "CDC" estimate was that this would cause 3000 deaths in Finland. At that point I had fiqured out that 50000 would be lot likely and 150000 if things go haywire.
                  And martial law extended to at least 3 months more.

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                  • #24
                    I personally think the entire planet needs to go to Marshall Law. Complete lock down. Armies patrolling streets with flame throwers. If you are out in the streets BBQ time. Designated shopping or deliveries period. I don't think it will be the virus itself that reduces the population but all the secondary deaths related to services not available. It will be a genetic cleansing of sorts. Only the strong survive. Don't laugh it could come to this in the near future.
                    Location: The Black Forest in Germany

                    How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Black Forest View Post
                      I personally think the entire planet needs to go to Marshall Law. Complete lock down. Armies patrolling streets with flame throwers. If you are out in the streets BBQ time. Designated shopping or deliveries period. I don't think it will be the virus itself that reduces the population but all the secondary deaths related to services not available. It will be a genetic cleansing of sorts. Only the strong survive. Don't laugh it could come to this in the near future.
                      It's something I've been expecting for the last 30 or 40 years - like rats we're too densely populated so something comes along to return the population to sustainable levels, in the wild it usually only takes out a single community as they die before they spread it - add global air travel in planes where they've stopped changing the air properly (smoking ban > clear-looking air > reduced ventilation > less fuel > more profit = 10 times the individual exposure) and global populations get taken out, the plagues in 14th and 17th centuries managed to dent them despite the fastest global transport being sailing ships.

                      Dave H. (the other one)
                      Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

                      Holbrook Model C Number 13 lathe, Testa 2U universal mill, bikes and tools

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by danlb View Post

                        That's a rather flippant way to look at it it. It's a little more real when you are in your 70s and have parents in their 80s and 90s. More than 1 out of 7 in that age range die from it so "just let them die" would mean someone in my immediate family will die if we "just let it happen".

                        I'd rather lose my money than my brothers, wife, children or parents.

                        Dan
                        How long will you last without money? Do you think I or your neighbors will feed you. If you believe that you live on a different planet than I do...

                        I do not share your optimism for avoiding a major depression if this goes on much longer. It won't be long until the gas stations stop getting gas deliveries. Given the tiny amount of fuel being consumed, it won't be long until the truckers start getting laid off. Nothing to do. See how well your car works after the ethanol fuel goes sour when your car doesn't get driven very often. The ethanol fuel depends on using it quickly to prevent 'spoilage'. Same for the thing goes for the fuel in the underground tanks. There are countless other industries that will not restart well...

                        Our 'modern' life and economy is really quite fragile. Look back at the blackouts that have occurred over a wide area in the north-east back in the day. If those extended for a longer period of time or covered a greater area, the repercussions would be much worse. Not much point to surviving if there is nothing left to come back to.

                        As cold as it sounds, It's better to lose 3 million people than an entire nation in which every one will starve a little later. Of course you don't want to loose members of your immediate family. I, rightfully so, care more about my family than anyone else's. That's just the way it is. The social distancing will do more than having the fabric of society fall apart.

                        Regardless of where this started, I can't think of a more successful weapon that could have been unleashed. Just imagine how much worse this would have been if it was intelligently designed and directed.

                        paul
                        ARS W9PCS

                        Esto Vigilans

                        Remember, just because you can doesn't mean you should...
                        but you may have to

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hopefuldave View Post
                          Don't know whether I have a sixth sense or just an understanding of epidemiology, but I was stocking up in January - not stripping the shelves, but buying a few extra tins and bags of flour / rice etc. - perhaps it's reading a lot of apocalyptic sci-fi as a kid (when the other kids were reading "See Spot run, good dog Spot" I was reading Earth Abides - great book!).

                          For those wanting a worst-case scenario, I can recommend the BBC series "Survivors" from 1975 - strangely prescient! On Youtube, but several series and could keep you occupied for a few isolated evenings

                          Dave H. (the other one)
                          Damn i remember that BBC series. Quite scary to watch as a teenager, thanx.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                            what your point. ...... The Chinese people are the first to suffer.
                            umm, dude, you were advocating nuking a country because it's the source of a recent disease. Then you express sympathy for the "the Chinese people". Surely you don't need me to point out the inconsistency there..

                            oh, more recently - HIV came out of Africa, Ebola is still doing the rounds in the Congo. Nuke them too? Right, it's their fault after all..

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mattthemuppet View Post

                              umm, dude, you were advocating nuking a country because it's the source of a recent disease. Then you express sympathy for the "the Chinese people". Surely you don't need me to point out the inconsistency there..

                              oh, more recently - HIV came out of Africa, Ebola is still doing the rounds in the Congo. Nuke them too? Right, it's their fault after all..
                              Apparently you don't understand the concept of "over stating" things.

                              No one would actually nuc them and that should be clear enough to anyone but I stand by blaming this on the Chinese gov. for not cleaning things up over there.We are all going to pay big for their failings and they should be held accountable. I don't have any sympathy for the Chinese in particular or anyone else for that matter, I have enough problems of my own (a chronically ill wife for one) to keep me busy and I don't need more coming out of China like this.

                              If you read my whole post I did say permanent quarantine or economic sanctions. I wasn't actually advocating nuc-ing them. There have been several major epidemics coming out of China each worse then the last, something has to be done to stop them from spreading out side China. The worlds societies will not survive to much of this without collapsing.

                              P.S. HIV is avoidable and Ebola spreads so fast there because their cultural practice of hugging the (infected) dead even when the locals are told not to do it and why. Not a real good idea when dealing with hemorrhagic virus. You do something stupid and you pay the price but why should everyone else have to pay for the stupidity of others.
                              Last edited by loose nut; 03-25-2020, 06:35 PM.
                              The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                              Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                              Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by vpt View Post
                                Everyone will get it eventually. Yes maybe slow it down and give some time and room in hospitals but at what cost? The economy is done. Just get back to work, let people get sick, whoever dies dies, lives lives, get on with life!
                                It would be nice if it worked like that, but this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If any country was in a position to simply force people to go to work and let the chips fall where they may, it was China. Even they know that there are levels of panic that even the threat of death can't control. Let it run its peak, hospitals will be over whelmed, they will turn people away simply because they can not treat them, people will die, the media will sensationalize it, and absolute panic will take over as people realize they are on their own. To think people are going to take one for the team for the benefit of the whole is contrary to all the behavior witnessed up to this point. The government would have done that, had they thought it would work. There are two predictable, and I would argue inevitable human behaviors in a panic. Get it while the getting is good, and if I can't have it, no one can. This lock down is just as bad. Either way, the economy is going down.

                                What I wonder is if people are going to remember who tried to sweep this under the rug, who is ultimately responsible for the shortage of medical supplies and medications, and us being almost completely reliant on somewhere else in an emergency. If not here, maybe we could manufacture things in countries more in line with our values, and maybe have domestic manufacturing of things critical to national security in an emergency.

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