Buying a CNC Lathe & CNC Mill - Need Advice

[DrMike]

mechanica:

If you are more interested in jumping feet-first into CNC machining than producing parts for your product, you've been given excellent advice about choosing appropriate equipment for your ultimate job. Keep in mind that it is always better to buy the proper tools the first time, and only cry once.

If you are more interested in having your prototype parts in order to get your product to market quickly and efficiently, you've also been given excellent advice. It will not be efficient for you to learn to machine, then to learn CNC machining, then to make your parts, especially for low-volume prototypes.

Ultimately, of course, these are all your choices.
Good luck.

[mechanica]

Alright br0thers, Thank you for all your comments and guidance again.

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a purchase.

I've got here my quotes for the 2 candidate machines:

__________________________________________________

1) Taig VSS DSLS Micromill 3000-AB 4 Axis Mill

Featuring all that you see here :

http://www.microproto.com/vss_micromill_dsls_3000ab.htm

Unit Cost : $4570
FedEx International Shipping : $385

Total Cost : $4955 USD or $6706 CAD

* Lets add another $500 CAD for bullsh&t FedEx custom handling charges to that just to be safe : $7206 CAD or $5322 USD

__________________________________________________

2) Tormach 440 (Starter Package)

PCNC 440 Mill
PathPilot Controller
Machine Owners Kit for PCNC 440
PCNC 440 Stand
PCNC 440 Chip Pan
Flood Coolant Kit for PCNC 440
4 in. CNC Vise
TTS CNC Operator Set with Tormach Tool Assistant
Machine Way Oil (1 Gallon) QualiChem XTREME CUT 251C
Standard LCD Monitor
Waterproof Mini-Keyboard
Cable Kit for Tormach PCNC Mills
Jog Shuttle Controller

Unit Cost with above Accessories : $12750 CAD (there is a local dealer so no US pricing here). But just for you Americans, that is $9420 USD
ESA Modification & Inspection (some machine inspection required prior to letting it through customs) : $950 CAD or $702
Shipping : $2200 CAD or $1625 USD
Tax : $2067 CAD or $1527 USD

Total : $17967 CAD or $13273 USD

The Entry Package which just includes this :

PCNC 440 CNC Mill
PCNC 440 Owner's Kit
PathPilot Controller

comes out to : $13955 CAD or $10306 USD

__________________________________________________

As you can see, there is quite a difference in prices.

I understand #2 would be a better machine overall.
But I have to live within a (limited) budget for setting up my home (hobbyists) workshop.

While I know the CNC mill will be the centre piece of the workshop, I still have other things
to buy from tooling to tables to saws to grinders to metrology tools to materials to......

And no i don't want to buy a Grizzly equivalent for less, taking it apart and refitting it to save money.
I'm too much of a green horn to embark on that journey and not end up with one big mess.
Nor do i want a used (anything) which is likely to have issues I don't know how to solve.
Or an ancient CNC mill that is a 1500 pound lawn mower with cob webs.


And SO we arrive at this point where I have to make a decision and pull the trigger.
Now if you high priests of Machining could please give me your blessings for Option #1,
I can go ahead and place the order
and sleep well at night.


Thank you.

[RB211]

Alright br0thers, Thank you for all your comments and guidance again.

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a purchase.

I've got here my quotes for the 2 candidate machines:

__________________________________________________

1) Taig VSS DSLS Micromill 3000-AB 4 Axis Mill

Featuring all that you see here :

http://www.microproto.com/vss_micromill_dsls_3000ab.htm

Unit Cost : $4570
FedEx International Shipping : $385

Total Cost : $4955 USD or $6706 CAD

* Lets add another $500 CAD for bullsh&t FedEx custom handling charges to that just to be safe : $7206 CAD or $5322 USD

__________________________________________________

2) Tormach 440 (Starter Package)

PCNC 440 Mill
PathPilot Controller
Machine Owners Kit for PCNC 440
PCNC 440 Stand
PCNC 440 Chip Pan
Flood Coolant Kit for PCNC 440
4 in. CNC Vise
TTS CNC Operator Set with Tormach Tool Assistant
Machine Way Oil (1 Gallon) QualiChem XTREME CUT 251C
Standard LCD Monitor
Waterproof Mini-Keyboard
Cable Kit for Tormach PCNC Mills
Jog Shuttle Controller

Unit Cost with above Accessories : $12750 CAD (there is a local dealer so no US pricing here). But just for you Americans, that is $9420 USD
ESA Modification & Inspection (some machine inspection required prior to letting it through customs) : $950 CAD or $702
Shipping : $2200 CAD or $1625 USD
Tax : $2067 CAD or $1527 USD

Total : $17967 CAD or $13273 USD

The Entry Package which just includes this :

PCNC 440 CNC Mill
PCNC 440 Owner's Kit
PathPilot Controller

comes out to : $13955 CAD or $10306 USD

__________________________________________________

As you can see, there is quite a difference in prices.

I understand #2 would be a better machine overall.
But I have to live within a (limited) budget for setting up my home (hobbyists) workshop.

While I know the CNC mill will be the centre piece of the workshop, I still have other things
to buy from tooling to tables to saws to grinders to metrology tools to materials to......

And no i don't want to buy a Grizzly equivalent for less, taking it apart and refitting it to save money.
I'm too much of a green horn to embark on that journey and not end up with one big mess.
Nor do i want a used (anything) which is likely to have issues I don't know how to solve.
Or an ancient CNC mill that is a 1500 pound lawn mower with cob webs.


And SO we arrive at this point where I have to make a decision and pull the trigger.
Now if you high priests of Machining could please give me your blessings for Option #1,
I can go ahead and place the order
and sleep well at night.


Thank you.

I will not give you my blessing for option #1. I'd much sooner get a G0704 or Precision Mathews mill and a CNC conversion kit, add in a Centroid Acorn or Linux CNC controller, and for very close to the price of the Taig, wind up with a much more capable machine.
However, it is your money. If you really want the Taig and don't really care about the points I've made previously, then just get it. Don't say I didn't warn you. The swivel column will drive you nuts, the ER16 spindle will drive you nuts. Mach 3 is old news.
You got a hair up your ass, as my dad would say.

[doctor demo]

Alright br0thers, Thank you for all your comments and guidance again.

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a purchase.
And no i don't want to buy a Grizzly equivalent for less, taking it apart and refitting it to save money.
I'm too much of a green horn to embark on that journey and not end up with one big mess.
Nor do i want a used (anything) which is likely to have issues I don't know how to solve.
Or an ancient CNC mill that is a 1500 pound lawn mower with cob webs.


And SO we arrive at this point where I have to make a decision and pull the trigger.
Now if you high priests of Machining could please give me your blessings for Option #1,
I can go ahead and place the order
and sleep well at night.


Thank you.

If you pull the trigger on option #1 , once the mill arrives it will be the last of your good sleep,and it might also be true for option #2 based on your current level of experience.
Have you contacted Tormach and talked about a lease or a "show special" or some other discounted machine option?

Steve

[pinstripe]

Whatever you decide, let us know how it works out. I personally would save up a bit more (borrow?) for the Tormach. If your business is successful, then you should recoup the costs fairly quickly. If your business isn't successful, then you could take on short-run work from others to build up your skills and pay for the machine. I assume resale value is also a lot better for the Tormach.

Have you watched John Grimsmo's recent vlogs? Even with big-dollar machines, a healthy tooling budget, and years of experience, he still spends hours every day dealing with problems. If your goal is to get good parts out quickly, then any option that involves buying CNC machines is probably the wrong one unless you have someone with the right skills to help you. I know you don't want to hear that right now, but I would exhaust all other options before buying either machine. There are places like https://www.emachineshop.com/ that should be able to make the parts for you.

[DrMike]

Alright br0thers, Thank you for all your comments and guidance again.

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on a purchase.

I've got here my quotes for the 2 candidate machines:

[SNIP

And SO we arrive at this point where I have to make a decision and pull the trigger.
Now if you high priests of Machining could please give me your blessings for Option #1,
I can go ahead and place the order
and sleep well at night.


Thank you.

Despite the comments and guidance, you've already decided to (1) buy CNC tools to make parts for your prototype and (2) to purchase Option #1. Why are you still seeking anyone's blessing?

Please post photos of your prototype parts as you produce them easily and efficiently on your new Taig VSS DSLS Micromill 3000-AB 4 Axis Mill.

[mechanica]

I can't afford anything else.
Its the only option by default.

I don't even see G0704 available here in Canada. There are only rough equivalents i.e. KB-20 or some such name. Whether a Grizzly conversion kit would work on that or whether it would be incompatible is not a gamble I can take.

The used CNC mill market here consists of behemoth sized machines selling for tens of thousands.

RB211 should ideally sell me his Taig at the brother-in-law price since he hates Taigs. I'm ready to give it a good home, namely my own.

[doctor demo]

[QUOTE=mechanica;n1883019]I can't afford anything else.
Its the only option by default./QUOTE]

Have you contacted Tormach about a lease, or other deal/option?

Steve

[mechanica]

[QUOTE=doctor demo;n1883023]

I can't afford anything else.
Its the only option by default./QUOTE]

Have you contacted Tormach about a lease, or other deal/option?

Steve

They have financing options but I'm not looking to go into debt.

I've sent an email to the distributor asking about demo units they might be looking to sell off. I'm doubtful they would have any - at least none they would be looking to unload at a substantially marked down price.

There aren't very many options I have here.

Taig + GlockCNC R8 headstock

...is the best I can do. I'll skip the pneumatic drawbar and reinforce the stock frame.

[RB211]

If I was to sell you my Taig for what I have in it, I'd turn around and buy something better with the money. I'm too far deep in it. It is my proverbial Spruce Goose.

[mechanica]

If I was to sell you my Taig for what I have in it, I'd turn around and buy something better with the money. I'm too far deep in it. It is my proverbial Spruce Goose.

You can turn it into your Canada goose.
Sell it to me for half of what you have in there.
Put the money towards a Tormach 440.

What say?

[RB211]

You can turn it into your Canada goose.
Sell it to me for half of what you have in there.
Put the money towards a Tormach 440.

What say?

Nope

[mechanica]

Alright guys.

I'm going to pull there trigger..

I guess I'll find out if I'm making a good or bad decision soon enough.

I'll be sure to keep you all updated so you learn from my positive / negative experience.


Thanks again for all your advice.

[JRouche]

Alright guys.

I'm going to pull there trigger..

I guess I'll find out if I'm making a good or bad decision soon enough.

I'll be sure to keep you all updated so you learn from my positive / negative experience.


Thanks again for all your advice.

Ooops, Im a bit excited myself. Always fun, like christmas. JR

Let us here if you want any help. Fun stuff. JR

[reggie_obe]

Alright guys.

I'm going to pull there trigger..

I guess I'll find out if I'm making a good or bad decision soon enough.

I'll be sure to keep you all updated so you learn from my positive / negative experience.


Thanks again for all your advice.

In all of the discussions, have you considered metal removal rates? Time consumed by tool and part changes?
You are trying to create a business venture with a real product. Can the machines you've chosen produce your product in a reasonable amount of time to turn a profit?