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  • Install dry cylinder sleeves

    Hi all been awhile since posting anything but I have been visiting occasionally, need some advice on boring an engine block and installing dry sleeves. The block is a 4 cylinder Komatsu diesel that was not a sleeved block from the factory but for whatever reason rebuild kits come with standard pistons and sleeves, the shop manual recommends sleeving rather than simply boring for over-size pistons which in fact are even very difficult to find. I have never had to bore for sleeves and I'm not sure how tight the fit should be, obviously it should be tight and I am thinking a freeze fit but the manual has no instructions it just suggests boring and sleeving for a rebuild. The bore is 3.75"+/- (95 mm?) and the sleeve wall is approximately 1/8", I have a BP type mill and a 3" boring head, I have dry ice available or even liquid nitrogen if something that cold might be necessary. Given this info what would a good bore to sleeve clearance be? ANY advice on installing these sleeves would be very much appreciated!
    Last edited by radkins; 09-06-2020, 01:20 PM.

  • #2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlYwePa1K4 At least look at the vid starting ~27 minutes in, where he talks about measuring for fit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOWWSOkNTyQ A second vid that is a bit more detailed..

    Dave is an old engine machinist that has this steam powered shop as a hobby. In this subject, sleeving, he knows his stuff.

    lg
    no neat sig line
    near Salem OR

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    • #3
      Cast iron block or aluminium ?

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      • #4
        http://powerbore.com/installing-cylinder-sleeves/
        https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/faqs

        common range seem to be 0.004" for aluminium block and 0.002 to 0.004" (0.0025") for iron block
        Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

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        • #5
          yet another https://dartonsleeves.com/tech_ctr.html
          Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

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          • #6
            Originally posted by 754 View Post
            Cast iron block or aluminium ?
            Cast iron

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            • #7
              Originally posted by radkins View Post

              Cast iron
              Way I learned it was anywhere from half a thou to a thou per inch of diameter. You have the ability to shrink and drop the sleeves in, that makes it a lot safer to install instead of trying to press them without breaking.

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              • #8
                I just came in from the shop for a few minutes to check on this thread, dang you guys are fast, Thanks! I'm just going to go get myself some coffee and sit down to watch some vids right now, I checked Youtube before asking but I guess I used the wrong search terms since I didn't see any of these, thanks again to everyone.

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                • #9
                  I have a 1934 Lagonda Rapier. I recently reworked the engine and found that it had sleeves that brought the bore back to standard. The sleeves had sufficient wear that I decides to enlarge them to 0.010 in. oversize and fit appropriate pistons. One of the sleeves was about 0.030 in. below the surface of the block and I wanted to correct that to assure a good gasket seal. I turned a chunk of metal with an outside diameter a bit under the sleeve outside diameter. I then turned a pilot diameter section to fit within the sleeve. I used this tool to drive the sleeve out from the bottom of the engine block. The sleeve fit was such that relatively light hammer blows moved it out of the block. I made a circular shim to fit under flange of the sleeve, assuring good gasket contact.

                  Many years ago, during my high school days, I hung around an engine repair shop to gain experience. They fitted sleeves to a hand push fit and coated them with some creamy white liquid before pushing them into the block. This stuff must have hardened to hold the sleeve in position. Those sleeves did not have flanges at the top of the bore. They were seated against ledges at the bottom.

                  These situations seem to conflict with the present tendency to press fit sleeves. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the sleeves in my examples were furnished to size rather than pressed in and bored to size after installation.
                  Last edited by Jim Williams; 09-06-2020, 03:49 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Okay, I agree about the fit, remember to set these sleeves against a ledge you leave at the bottom of the bore. DON'T do all 4 bores at the same time, or you won't be able to get them all in. Bore every other hole, Install the sleeves. Next bore the remaining 2 and install the sleeves. Then finish bore all, leaving .002-.003 to finish with a sunnen cylinder hone, leaving a crosss hatch pattern about 30 degrees or more.
                    I cut it off twice; it's still too short
                    Oregon, USA

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                    • #11
                      Did you check to see if your mill has enough stroke? Most don't.
                      The reason they bore and sleeve, is to avoid hitting porosity in the cylinder wall. The porosity can be caused by casting defects or cavitation, if it's present, then there is a good chance of ending up with a wet cylinder unless it's sleeved.
                      Do the sleeves that came with the kit have a shoulder at the top? Most do and the depth of that shoulder relative to the block deck is critical on a diesel.
                      I just need one more tool,just one!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jim Williams View Post

                        Many years ago, during my high school days, I hung around an engine repair shop to gain experience. They fitted sleeves to a hand push fit and coated them with some creamy white liquid before pushing them into the block. This stuff must have hardened to hold the sleeve in position. Those sleeves did not have flanges at the top of the bore. They were seated against ledges at the bottom.
                        These situations seem to conflict with the present tendency to press fit sleeves. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the sleeves in my examples were furnished to size rather than pressed in and bored to size after installation.
                        Most likely a mix of white lead and light oil so the sleeve won't seize as it's being pressed in.It also served somewhat as a heat transfer media.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
                          Did you check to see if your mill has enough stroke? Most don't.
                          The reason they bore and sleeve, is to avoid hitting porosity in the cylinder wall. The porosity can be caused by casting defects or cavitation, if it's present, then there is a good chance of ending up with a wet cylinder unless it's sleeved.
                          Do the sleeves that came with the kit have a shoulder at the top? Most do and the depth of that shoulder relative to the block deck is critical on a diesel.
                          I think that is why some mill heads rotate over. Just need a good set, cant make the head handle any weight really, she will move.

                          So now its a line bore or weak horizontal mill. It will get the job done.

                          Sorry to hijack Radkins. I thought it was a motorcycle from the header. Pleasantly surprised to see something more interesting.

                          I have done bores on flat six porches and some air cooled bikes. No diesels yet. Suprised the Komatsu needs lining? They are bullet proof. Somebody ate a glow plug .

                          Pic? Thanks for the story. I am of no help. JR
                          My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                          https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
                            Did you check to see if your mill has enough stroke? Most don't.
                            The reason they bore and sleeve, is to avoid hitting porosity in the cylinder wall. The porosity can be caused by casting defects or cavitation, if it's present, then there is a good chance of ending up with a wet cylinder unless it's sleeved.
                            Do the sleeves that came with the kit have a shoulder at the top? Most do and the depth of that shoulder relative to the block deck is critical on a diesel.
                            I was worried about the stroke but have been busy finishing another project that I had to finish before starting that block, the block should arrive at the shop today so I will measure and find out.

                            Yes the sleeves have a rather hefty shoulder at the top plus they also have a slight but definite step at the bottom. You really got my attention with the comment about that top shoulder on the sleeve, I "assumed" (dangerous word there) that the top of that shoulder would be flush with the top of the block or at least no more than a couple of thousandths proud?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JRouche View Post
                              I have done bores on flat six porches and some air cooled bikes. No diesels yet. Surprised the Komatsu needs lining? They are bullet proof. Somebody ate a glow plug .

                              Pic? Thanks for the story. I am of no help. JR
                              Nothing as serious as eating a glow plug or even excessive wear and in fact .010 should easily clean up the bore but oversize pistons are as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth! The explanation from Weirdscience about exposing porosity makes sense but for whatever the reason the kit comes with standard pistons and sleeves and the manual explains that the standard procedure is to bore and sleeve. The bore damage is the result of the owner fitting the vertically mounted exhaust pipe INTO the exhaust manifold port instead of OVER this port! Whenever rain water ran down the muffler it drained into the exhaust manifold instead of draining over it, this of course ended up in the cylinders on top of the pistons with also more than just a little damage to the head/exhaust valves! Since there was so little actual wear I can "almost" clean up the cylinders by honing but two of them have reached the size limit and still have patches of pitting that would simply require too much metal removal to clean up, worse still one of those cylinders has some vertical scuffing that will not hone out. The engine had reached the point that compression had dropped to the point that it would not start, the owner called me over to trouble-shoot the no-start problem and during the course of the check I noticed the oil was an odd color, suspecting water I removed the drain plug and about two quarts of water came out before any oil! I removed the valve cover (of course it was a mess under there!) and when the engine was cranking the blow-by was painfully obvious! When the head was removed it became apparent that a total engine rebuild was in his future so a complete engine kit was purchased,

                              I saw pictures of the kit before he ordered it and upon seeing the sleeves I "assumed" it had wet cylinders (I hadn't cleaned the gasket from the top of the block yet to reveal whether or not this was the case) so I agreed to rebuild it for him. Not being familiar with this engine I bought the service manual for it and that's when I discovered the dry sleeve situation, had I known what I was getting into I would not have accepted this job. The guy is a good friend of mine and only because of that did I agree to to do this, normally I don't rebuild engines except my own, but now I am thinking maybe I have gotten in over my head. I called all the local shops that do boring and while they would bore the block oversize none of them want anything to do with installing multiple cylinder sleeves citing everything from "we don't do diesels" to the problem of warping the block from installing so many sleeves at one time. The only shop willing to do it is half the State away and they want a minimum of $800 to do the job which IMHO is money well spent! I have no problem rebuilding the head but I am becoming really concerned about attempting this block,

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