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  • #76
    Originally posted by garyhlucas View Post
    SolidWorks is not competing with Inventor. They won that war years ago. Trying finding a job for Inventor. I .
    And yet Autodesk is still selling lots of it so someone is using Inventor.
    The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

    Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

    Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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    • #77
      Originally posted by pinstripe View Post
      Autodesk could make current versions of F360 impossible to pirate by keeping more code in the cloud. s.
      That is the whole point of the "cloud". Won't help. There will be always be something available for those that can't afford or justify the overpriced CAD package's.
      The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

      Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

      Southwestern Ontario. Canada

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by loose nut View Post
        And yet Autodesk is still selling lots of it so someone is using Inventor.
        I think some Inventor users are worried that F360 will eventually replace it. It makes much more sense for a company to have one product with different features at their target price points than a handful of different products.


        Originally posted by loose nut View Post
        That is the whole point of the "cloud". Won't help. There will be always be something available for those that can't afford or justify the overpriced CAD package's.
        Sure, but what are they going to do about it? Re-implement complex features that may require millions of lines of code? Take generative design as an example. You send your model to the cloud and their servers generate the design. It all happens transparently as if your computer did it, but the code to generate the designs is all on their servers. You can't just "crack" that. You need to defeat their authentication mechanism so you can submit requests to their server without having a current license. That may be possible (not easy), but they can fix it on their end if you find an exploit that allows you to do it.

        Also, I'm not sure if "overpriced" is fair. It's certainly expensive, but these are complicated pieces of software that save companies millions of dollars. Imagine how disadvantaged a modern manufacturer would be if they hand-drew complex designs today. If this page is accurate https://ycharts.com/companies/ADSK/profit_margin, then Autodesk is making a nice profit at the moment, but well below what Adobe, Intuit and SalesForce are making. I picked these three because they are shown on the same page as benchmark stocks.

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        • #79

          They may want to "convert" all Inventor users to 360 but what will they do with those that won't. As far as only having one product in an area, Autodesk has a dozen different versions of Autocad, each has a specific function so why worry about having 360 and Inventor.


          I wasn't referring to "stealing" 360 but that people will go to another package. Most don't need 360, just a CAD system that they can use and for the amateur cheaper/free is better.360 was great for a while but is sliding farther and farther away from that now.

          Is it not overpriced, most CAD packages were developed many years ago and only make small incremental changes to there software each year, fix a few bugs and maybe dress it up a bit differently and then charge a couple of thou a year to "maintain" it. That usually means bug fix's. They should not charge for fixing problems with their software. If you bought a car that wouldn't run you would expect it to be made right wouldn't you, warranty and all. Why do they charge a third or more each year to keep their software working as advertised. Where is their warranty. It used to be you bought the package and downloaded fix's for free but now they expect the buyer to pay to have problems with it made right. Sounds like extortion to me.

          Someone said, as an alternative to 360 that an old version of a CAD program. could be found on the web. Why. Every major CAD programs current year and version can be found on the web. Hard as these companies try it gets out there, that is the problem with digitized "stuff". Just do a search and see.
          Last edited by loose nut; 09-23-2020, 08:37 PM.
          The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

          Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

          Southwestern Ontario. Canada

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by loose nut View Post
            They may want to "convert" all Inventor users to 360 but what will they do with those that won't. As far as only having one product in an area, Autodesk has a dozen different versions of Autocad, each has a specific function so why worry about having 360 and Inventor.

            ...........
            I do not see them dumping REVIT. It is too widely used by people whom it serves well, and who do not want to change to a new program.
            1601 2137 5683 1002 1437

            Keep eye on ball.
            Hashim Khan

            If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

            Comment


            • #81
              One thing about Fusion that I like, and because it is a subscription, it is constantly updated, new features, etc.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                They may want to "convert" all Inventor users to 360 but what will they do with those that won't. As far as only having one product in an area, Autodesk has a dozen different versions of Autocad, each has a specific function so why worry about having 360 and Inventor.
                Aren't the AutoCADs basically the same product with different symbols/libraries and features targeted at different markets? With the same codebase for all? That is what I am referring to. They can have different marketing names and features, but be only one product from a development perspective. It's cheaper than maintaining different products with overlapping implementations of similar features.


                Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                I wasn't referring to "stealing" 360 but that people will go to another package. Most don't need 360, just a CAD system that they can use and for the amateur cheaper/free is better.360 was great for a while but is sliding farther and farther away from that now.
                Got it, yes that's always an option.


                Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                Is it not overpriced, most CAD packages were developed many years ago and only make small incremental changes to there software each year, fix a few bugs and maybe dress it up a bit differently and then charge a couple of thou a year to "maintain" it. That usually means bug fix's. They should not charge for fixing problems with their software. If you bought a car that wouldn't run you would expect it to be made right wouldn't you, warranty and all. Why do they charge a third or more each year to keep their software working as advertised. Where is their warranty. It used to be you bought the package and downloaded fix's for free but now they expect the buyer to pay to have problems with it made right. Sounds like extortion to me.
                Agreed on free bug fixes, but pricing is based on value and not cost in this case. Companies must still be getting value from these packages (partly because they are locked in, and moving to another package is expensive). I agree they are expensive, but it doesn't look like Autodesk is making disproportionate profits for a software company of their size.


                Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                ISomeone said, as an alternative to 360 that an old version of a CAD program. could be found on the web. Why. Every major CAD programs current year and version can be found on the web. Hard as these companies try it gets out there, that is the problem with digitized "stuff". Just do a search and see.
                That's why I am going with Solid Edge. It's free for life without any strings attached as long as it's not used for making money. They could change the license terms tomorrow, and I will still have the 2020 version of the software to use for life. I'm sure it does enough to cover whatever I am likely to need as a hobbyist. The same can't be said (legally) for Solidworks and F360. They are yearly renewals for the free/cheap versions.


                Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                One thing about Fusion that I like, and because it is a subscription, it is constantly updated, new features, etc.
                I expect that will change over time. It's easy to add features to a new product. The beauty of a subscription model (for the developer) is that they keep making money even if they don't improve the software much. The rate of genuinely useful new features is likely to taper off as the product matures. They will do "just enough" to keep the customers as loose nut mentioned above.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                  One thing about Fusion that I like, and because it is a subscription, it is constantly updated, new features, etc.
                  They are always updating because the program is behind the curve feature wise and they are trying to catch up. Once they have caught up to the features in other programs, if that is their plan, the constant updating will slow way down, just enough so it is competitive with other programs.Inventor has a whole lot of "extra" features that 360 doesn't have yet, probably Solidworks has similar features too.
                  The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                  Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                  Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                    One thing about Fusion that I like, and because it is a subscription, it is constantly updated, new features, etc.
                    That is the driving factor for it being in the cloud, its not some sky-net conspiracy or to hold your data hostage. Its to drive development of a saleable product. Fusion would never have developed as much as it did or as quickly as it did if it was a program installed on the customers PCs. The development team also had the ability to watch the analytics to see what features its customers were using and focus the development efforts in those areas. Software companies are going to the subscription model in order to maintain a consistent cash flow. If Kroger sells you a bunch of bananas they're happy to do so but they are also happy to know you'll be back in a week to get another bunch. In the software world they sell you a package and then hope that in a year you come back to buy the next upgrade. This causes them several issues and they can't put new features into an existing product. They feel the need to hold back all but bug fixes to generate a desire or need to buy the next version.

                    As noted in prior posts the issue comes up with the terms of service and license cost. Personally I'm still eligible for the personal license however I could if I chose to buy the commercial subscription. The deal they are offering is great. But as a non revenue individual I have concerns about going deeper in the rabbit hole. How do I know that AutoDesk doesn't take away more features, or change the product license mode *again* and now my version is $100 a month. So for now I'm in a holding pattern and will continue to use Fusion 360 free. I would however love to see a really good comparison of the alternatives.
                    Mike
                    Central Ohio, USA

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                    • #85
                      A program like Solidedge is a great option for the amateur, besides being free for life and you can't beat that, there will probably be a 2021, 2022 etc. versions which will contain updates.Still free. Yes it won't do some things that other programs do, I don't think there is a CAM module in the free version ?????? but there are workarounds for that. It also doesn't have a parts library built in, Inventor has 750,000 parts plus there is a design centre that will generator all sorts of things like gears etc.Other high end programs are probably like that but you don't get that feature for free. Again there are workarounds for that also. As far as modelling Solidedge will do anything that the other programs will do.
                      The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                      Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                      Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Ohio Mike View Post

                        .......... In the software world they sell you a package and then hope that in a year you come back to buy the next upgrade. This causes them several issues and they can't put new features into an existing product. They feel the need to hold back all but bug fixes to generate a desire or need to buy the next version.

                        ............
                        You did not mention "maintenance". I pay that on Alibre expert, because I get the upgrades as soon as produced. One is due in a couple weeks, delayed due to an upgrade of an underlying vendor-supplied function. And there will be at least one minor upgrade soon after.

                        With the "maintenance" model, you do NOT "buy" the upgraded program, you pay for it's on-going development, so there is no reason for the company to delay anything, especially bug fixes. Upgrades with new and improved features are what sells the program.
                        1601 2137 5683 1002 1437

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                          You did not mention "maintenance". I pay that on Alibre expert, because I get the upgrades as soon as produced. One is due in a couple weeks, delayed due to an upgrade of an underlying vendor-supplied function. And there will be at least one minor upgrade soon after.

                          With the "maintenance" model, you do NOT "buy" the upgraded program, you pay for it's on-going development, so there is no reason for the company to delay anything, especially bug fixes. Upgrades with new and improved features are what sells the program.
                          True. Maintenance has long been a way to equalize the revenue stream but it can be a hard sell sometimes too.
                          Last edited by Ohio Mike; 09-24-2020, 04:11 PM.
                          Mike
                          Central Ohio, USA

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                            You did not mention "maintenance". I pay that on Alibre expert, because I get the upgrades as soon as produced. One is due in a couple weeks, delayed due to an upgrade of an underlying vendor-supplied function. And there will be at least one minor upgrade soon after.
                            So you mention using Alibre. If you don't mind me asking I have some questions...

                            How long have you been using it? Do you like it? Its one of the alternatives I found really interesting and will probably get a demo soon to try it out. I was a little disappointed that the sheet metal tools are only in Expert. Although not required it sure would be nice to have.
                            Mike
                            Central Ohio, USA

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I like it. It is not perfect, but I found troublesome issues in Solidworks when I was using it also. Some were the same issues with spline forms and "lofts". Been using it about 8 years, and benefited from a long ago free upgrade to the top version they were handing out several years ago.

                              I use Expert, and have the sheet metal, which I do not use a lot, but have definitely used. CAD sheet metal is odd. I have always used a table of bend allowances by metal thickness, but the CAD programs all seem to use the Lockheed "k factor" system, which I do not like particularly.

                              If you saw the thread some time ago where I was asking about machine arrangements, for that I have a large model of the entire basement, including immovable stuff, all machines and every other "thing" that is of any size. Loads fast and runs well on a 6 core Dell G3 gaming machine that was not that expensive, even with 16gb, 10 pro, and the newest video card.
                              1601 2137 5683 1002 1437

                              Keep eye on ball.
                              Hashim Khan

                              If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Ohio Mike View Post
                                That is the driving factor for it being in the cloud, its not some sky-net conspiracy or to hold your data hostage. Its to drive development of a saleable product. Fusion would never have developed as much as it did or as quickly as it did if it was a program installed on the customers PCs. The development team also had the ability to watch the analytics to see what features its customers were using and focus the development efforts in those areas.
                                You are right. It's not a sky-net conspiracy, but all those things you mention can be done with software running wholly on the user's computer. Unless I am mistaken, F360 is all running on the user's computer with the exception of the features that use cloud credits. So really, they did all this with the bulk of the software not being "in the cloud". Only the file storage and a few optional features are cloud-based.


                                Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                                A program like Solidedge is a great option for the amateur, besides being free for life and you can't beat that, there will probably be a 2021, 2022 etc. versions which will contain updates.Still free. Yes it won't do some things that other programs do, I don't think there is a CAM module in the free version ?????? but there are workarounds for that. It also doesn't have a parts library built in, Inventor has 750,000 parts plus there is a design centre that will generator all sorts of things like gears etc.Other high end programs are probably like that but you don't get that feature for free. Again there are workarounds for that also. As far as modelling Solidedge will do anything that the other programs will do.
                                Correct, the free SE doesn't have CAM. It has a tiny parts library. IIRC, the parts library and engineering reference were the biggest differences between the free and paid version. There are web sites with lots of parts that you can import though. I was looking for a particular model of Axis camera, and I found it on a web site. It was in a different format (Solidworks I think), but I was able to import it. The free SE also doesn't come with the offline help server, so it's possible that the help on the Siemens web site will disappear for old versions one day.

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