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Craftsman 919.168700 Compressor Capacitor Wiring?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jim Stewart View Post

    Uh, Paul isn't exactly a novice at electricity and electronics, Reggie. Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?

    -js
    Well, what it say on the tank?? 15A 125v Duh!
    Would seem that a Broadcast Engineer/Transmitter Operator is a little lacking in some areas.

    The real problem, before the owner created an additional one by disconnecting the wiring?
    It's tripping because the centripetal start switch is not disengaging.
    Why? Because the owner broke the cover and it no longer mounts securely on the rear of the motor.
    Hence all the remnants of duct tape.
    Last edited by reggie_obe; 09-25-2020, 09:22 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Well, I ran down that link and discovered that it was probably made by DeVilbiss. But there is no apparent way to find this model from there. I would have to search one model after another until I find it. And even then, it may still be different.

      It is in my shop now and I found a YouTube video where one like it was opened enough for me to see some of the wires. I may have the wiring arrangement. Checking the resistance of the coils will confirm it. I also plan to check the capacitors for value and leakage and the operation of the centrifugal switch.

      I think I will have it running before the sun comes up unless one of the capacitors is bad.

      As for the original problem, I asked. It is a victim of a hurricane, several years back. He had it at his country place and it got caught in a flood. The water was only about two feet deep so it did not reach the motor or compressor. But he said it just did not work when he brought it to town. He has been shifting through other storm items and is just getting to this after a few years. It does run now, if only for less than a half minute and he says that the only thing he did to it was to move it from there to his house here. Perhaps some of you can get something out of that, but I can't. I have seen zero signs of the flood water on or in it. It looks totally cherry. He says ten hours of use or less.



      Originally posted by Greg_B View Post
      Somewhere on the web there was a site listing that translated the Sears Model numbers into the original builder of the equipment.
      Then you could search for a wiring diagram under that name.

      Found It: http://vintagemachinery.org/Craftsma...facturers.aspx

      919 is Ingersoll Rand
      Paul A.
      SE Texas

      Make it fit.
      You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

      Comment


      • #18
        Have an ammeter on it when starting. If it runs for 15-25 seconds it could be the switch is not disconnecting the start winding. The motor windings could be close to failing or the breaker could be weak. A generic wiring diagram for a cap start / cap run motor is all you should need. They are all wired the same. Terminal numbers and wire colors change but the way the motor works electrically does not.

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        • #19
          I should not have bragged about fixing it before dawn. After some careful checks I have discovered that the capacitors are good. The centrifugal switch is good. I rang out the three wires (red, brown, and black) coming from the motor to the end compartment where the capacitors are and found that the red-black has the larger resistance, 1.6 Ohms, so it is probably the start winding. The black-brown has only about 0.7 Ohms and I guess that is the run winding. And red-brown has the largest resistance or 2.4 Ohms (0.7 + 1.6 = 2.3 so that should be the two windings in series).

          Then I checked for shorts to ground and found none. But then I checked across the hot and neutral of the AC plug and found only about 0.3 Ohms which I see as a dead short or close to it. This goes away when the switch is turned off. I pulled the switch cover and pulled the two AC wires to the motor loose and checked there. Again, that same 0.3 Ohms. No wonder it is blowing breakers.

          I looked at the end of the motor that is exposed by removing the capacitor and centrifugal switch cover and saw something with three wires on it in a recess in the end bell of the motor. It is a black cylinder shape with little to ID it. About 1.25" in diameter and about 0.75" long. The wires are black, orange, and white with a blue stripe. When I took the black and orange wires off, the short went away.

          Anyone know what that may be? Could it be a thermal cutoff to protect against too much heat. The back end seemed to be up against the windings. Or what? I will post a photo tomorrow.

          And how could the AC line going into the motor show a dead short while I can see the distinctly higher readings on the two coils? That is very puzzling.

          I am still not seeing any signs of any damage from that flood water.
          Paul A.
          SE Texas

          Make it fit.
          You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

          Comment


          • #20
            PS: I was using one of my new-to-me Simpson meters for this and just how nice it is is all coming back to me. I could tell not only that the capacitor values were OK, but by watching them charge up with the 9V battery in the meter, I knew their ESR was also OK. Of course, I checked them with my other new toy which provides a readout of both of those parameters using a computer chip. But as for the meter, I just love it. And I can't wait until the second one is also running 100%.
            Paul A.
            SE Texas

            Make it fit.
            You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Paul Alciatore View Post
              PS: I was using one of my new-to-me Simpson meters for this and just how nice it is is all coming back to me. I could tell not only that the capacitor values were OK, but by watching them charge up with the 9V battery in the meter, I knew their ESR was also OK. Of course, I checked them with my other new toy which provides a readout of both of those parameters using a computer chip. But as for the meter, I just love it. And I can't wait until the second one is also running 100%.
              I remember the first time someone taught me to test capacitors with an analog meter, I thought it was sheer genius.
              I know SOME digital meters have a capacitance reading function, witch is really cool. I don't own one but have used
              them before. As for an analog meter, I believe you can only observe that a cap is functioning, and not really get a
              farad value. Is that correct? Glad to hear you figured out your neighbor's motor.

              --Doozer
              DZER

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post
                The real problem, before the owner created an additional one by disconnecting the wiring?
                It's tripping because the centripetal start switch is not disengaging.
                Why? Because the owner broke the cover and it no longer mounts securely on the rear of the motor.
                Hence all the remnants of duct tape.
                Dude, you sound like me.
                I don't know if that is a compliment or not.... And I am the one saying it! LOL

                -Doozer
                DZER

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post

                  Well, what it say on the tank?? 15A 125v Duh!
                  Would seem that a Broadcast Engineer/Transmitter Operator is a little lacking in some areas.
                  Come on man! That's not nice. Even I don't say things that are mean. (I hope not).

                  -D

                  DZER

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Doozer View Post

                    Come on man! That's not nice. Even I don't say things that are mean. (I hope not).

                    -D
                    Seriously dude.
                    OP has a cat start,cap run motor.
                    Look up some wiring diagrams. Get out your meter.
                    Only so many ways to skin the cat.

                    This is why professionals and tradesmen charge what they charge Because they have to complete a repair someone else buggered up.
                    In this case, the neighbor.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      that thing against the windings does sound like a thermal cut out, but it should switch to open circuit in an over heat situation. A closed short doesn't make any sense under normal function, so at best that part seems bust.

                      I would have said that the centrifugal switch was bad if the motor runs for 30s but then trips a breaker - start winding not dropping out. But you said that's working fine (can you hear it drop out when up to speed and re-engage as the motor coasts down?) so something else must be causing the overcurrent. That mystery closed short is a candidate.

                      Sounds like you have a proper mystery on your hands.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The answer.
                        It is not worth any ones time to try and repair such a product, these are disposable.
                        Use them until they stop then buy a new one https://www.sears.com/craftsman-20-g...p-00916913000P
                        I have paid more for a single micrometer.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Doozer,

                          Most analog multimeters do not have a capacitance scale. Some may, but I have never had one. I do have an analog CAPACITANCE meter that is quite old. It only reads capacitance, none of the other things that you may need to know about a capacitor. One of those other things is the ESR or Equivalent, Series Resistance. Yes, capacitors have resistance. And in some applications that is an important parameter.

                          What I was referring to about the Simpson 260 is that with years of use I have developed a knack for knowing just how the resistance scales of that particular meter react to different values and types of capacitors. This is an experience factor and I only have it with the Simpson because I have used that model so many times. So, I have a rough idea of how a 1 uF or a 10 uF or a 100 uF capacitor will show up when the resistance scale is used on the Simpson 260. No, I do not get an exact value, but I can usually tell when a capacitor is not anywhere near it's marked capacitance value. And, on top of that, I can observe just how far the high resistance scale moves before the charging of the capacitor stops due to leakage. So, a reading after the capacitor is connected for a minute or two or three lets me know about that. I have tested a lot of capacitors with a Simpson 260. And most of the time, those tests were correct enough for the purpose of troubleshooting.

                          I did mention testing the capacitors with another device. It was one of these:

                          https://smile.amazon.com/Mega328-Dig...1159981&sr=8-4

                          They give a capacitance value and the ESR. And it confirmed what I saw with the Simpson. It is a super neat device.

                          My decades old, capacitance-only meter still has a layer of dust on it on the back shelf where it has sat for over 10 years. Oh, and I also have a digital multimeter that has a capacitance scale. But it does not do the ESR check. So I did not use it either.



                          Originally posted by Doozer View Post

                          I remember the first time someone taught me to test capacitors with an analog meter, I thought it was sheer genius.
                          I know SOME digital meters have a capacitance reading function, witch is really cool. I don't own one but have used
                          them before. As for an analog meter, I believe you can only observe that a cap is functioning, and not really get a
                          farad value. Is that correct? Glad to hear you figured out your neighbor's motor.

                          --Doozer
                          Paul A.
                          SE Texas

                          Make it fit.
                          You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            As for my ability, no one is an expert in all areas. Most of the problems that I had to tackle were unique. Only a few of them were the same as I had seen before and where I already knew the answer. Most of the time I had to work through a system or a part of a system that I had never seen before. When a machine has a three inch ring binder to hold just it's schematic diagrams, you can work on hundreds of problems in it without ever repeating them. And most of the motors that I saw were DC, not AC. But I am trying to learn.

                            I am trying to do a friend a favor here and am asking for a little help. I am not too proud to ask. If you do not have any real help, you are free to ignore my questions.

                            As for the duct tape, it is just a way to remove and replace that cover while troubleshooting. The centrifugal switch is in two parts with one mounted in the cover. So the cover must be in place to check the operation. I am sure he has the screws or, if not, we will find some when the repairs are complete. Err, when and if, that is.
                            Paul A.
                            SE Texas

                            Make it fit.
                            You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The cover houses the start switch, if it's not mounted properly (has a big chunk broken out of it) and firmly, the centripetal mechanism is going to push the cover out before opening the contacts. Then it trips the breaker.
                              Last edited by reggie_obe; 09-27-2020, 10:44 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The thermal switch, if it is one, SHOULD be a short. They short all the connections together, and open everything when overheated. Should be in the incoming circuit in series.

                                It is entirely possible, even probable, that the run cap is connected across the start switch and start cap, so that it is retained in circuit when the start cap is disconnected by the switch. Guessing by colors is likely not going to work, simply because IIRC Craftsman motors do not always follow the "standard" wire colors, although they generally do follow the wire number conventions, if the wires are numbered.

                                Most likely, the protector is partly wired-in (some connections permanent) and the loose wires are for the other connections.

                                Best plan is to look carefully inside and discover what the various loose wires go to. Then, and only then, will it become clear how it needs to be connected.

                                Things to identify.....

                                Wires to the protector

                                wire to the start switch

                                Possible wires connected for the run capacitor (may as mentioned, be connected across the switch and capacitor)
                                1601

                                Keep eye on ball.
                                Hashim Khan

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