OT - security camera system for shop, NVR system question

[aribert]

My wife has convinced me to get a security camera system for my workshop (and also one for our residence). In both locations there are a few camera locations that I can not conveniently run a cable to. My workshop is about 10 miles from my residence. The workshop neighborhood has changed to having a significant amount of rentals with a (my perception) increase in petty crimes. I have hardened the workshop garage (on a corner lot, facing the side street) with steel plate reinforcing the deadbolt striker (man door itself has an outer covering of MDF siding over the door). Windows have "bars" on the inside - actually made from 1/2 inch square stock - not that sturdy but a hindrance to anyone wanting to simply break out a window to enter. Weak point (I think) are the 3 sectional garage doors. I've never had an attempted break in to the garage - but in the 25 years since I moved out of the house, the house has been broken into twice.

I am interested in using a NVR system with POE (power over ethernet) cameras plus a couple of wireless cameras with solar panel for charging the camera battery. I see NRV systems with POE cameras and I see NVR systems with wifi cameras. Will a typical NVR accept data from both styles of cameras? My thought is yes since the DRV accepts any camera data on the network. I have no experience with any of this and do not want to buy a system only to realize I made a mistake and end up buying another system. My intent is to have cameras with 4 or 5 MP resolution. If I am going to record a perp, I want the video to be useful identifying the perp. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[ikdor]

wifi usually struggles with the bandwidth of multiple high resolution cameras. The PoE is an order of magnitude better and cannot be jammed.
I agree that 5MP is the minimum to get some decent images out. You can now also stick 128G microSD cards into some cameras which only record when motion is detected. Then you don't need a separate NVR. But if the camera is pulled off the wall you lose the recording. I am buying a system for my parents at the moment and am seriously considering to get some IR lights as well.

[JoeLee]

wifi usually struggles with the bandwidth of multiple high resolution cameras. The PoE is an order of magnitude better and cannot be jammed.
I agree that 5MP is the minimum to get some decent images out. You can now also stick 128G microSD cards into some cameras which only record when motion is detected. Then you don't need a separate NVR. But if the camera is pulled off the wall you lose the recording. I am buying a system for my parents at the moment and am seriously considering to get some IR lights as well.

That was my concern back when I first put in my security system was the SD cards. If the camera gets stolen there goes your evidence. So what I did was I bought a server and I configured the cameras to record to the server.
You can hide the server somewhere in the building where it won't be found or you can have it at your home, remote location. I can monitor all my cameras on my phone wherever I go. Motion detection camera records sends a series of snapshots to my phone and records to the server at the same time.

JL....

[Sparky_NY]

Just set up a system here a few weeks ago. Take a look at Blue Iris software, its extremely powerful and can handle pretty much any camera, up to 64 cams in fact. It has all the advanced features that many systems lack. The software can be had for about $60 and you can mix and match any cameras you want. I have a dome camera, 30X optical zoom, pan and tilt,5MP along with a 5MP 4:1 zoom bullet cam plus a 6mp fixed dome. I also went with remote IR illuminators which makes all the difference in the world at night, turning off the cams IR led's gets rid of glare from rain and attracting bugs to the camera which can cause false motion trips, they also light up a larger area much better.

One thing to check is if any cameras you look at are Onvif compatible, its a standard communications protocol for cameras that is widely supported by most of the good hardware.

Lot of youtube vids on Blue Iris software.

[Sparky_NY]

Oh yea, one more thing. When looking at 5MP cams or higher keep in mind that most monitors and tv's are not capable of displaying resolution that high anyways. 5MP is 2560x1920, so 1920 horizontal lines, a 1080i TV is only half that, it takes a 4K tv to be able to really take advantage of the high resolution cameras.

[CarlByrns]

The camera location is critical- those fancy doorbell cameras are worthless because they are so easy to disable- walk right up to it (while wearing your N95 mask) and slap a sticker over the lens or smash it with a hammer. Bye-bye camera.
Just sayin'.

In any event, cameras can only record what has already happened- even if your stuff is recovered, you may never get it back as it is evidence in a criminal case that may drag on for years.

The best alarm is the one nobody (and that means nobody) can see or knows about and that raises hell when when tripped. Our old workshop alarm tripped one day (controller fault) it's high pitched howling-from-hell yelp drove everyone out of the building- it would literally make you nauseous. We had one break in- the front door was broken and the crook left as soon as the alarm went off.

[aribert]

That was my concern back when I first put in my security system was the SD cards. If the camera gets stolen there goes your evidence. So what I did was I bought a server and I configured the cameras to record to the server.
You can hide the server somewhere in the building where it won't be found or you can have it at your home, remote location. I can monitor all my cameras on my phone wherever I go. Motion detection camera records sends a series of snapshots to my phone and records to the server at the same time.

JL....

JoeLee:

WHat specific software, if any, are you using for your server to record and send you alerts?

[aribert]

Sparky_NY:

Thanks for your posts - good information for me to follow up on. I had already gone to the Blue Iris website. And in my reading, I have consistently read that wireless camera resolution is dependent on the wi-fi speed at the time of camera recording. At this point I am inclined to buy a POE camera system (4 POE cameras, 8 channel capability) and add a couple of additional wi-fi cameras vs setting up my own system from scratch. Concern of the unknown tech issues along with what the overall cost if I buy things piecemeal is my major concern.

CarlByrnes:

I understand the effectiveness of an obnoxious alarm. My workshop is in the middle of a residential neighborhood. The idea of an obnoxious alarm going off inadvertently is not a good outcome. As is, I work to keep my noise level down so that neighbors are not affected.


All:

Currently I have no wi-fi on site at my workshop garage - I hotspot my phone for internet access. I presume that I will get a wireless hotspot dodad for the future 24/7 wifi security system use so that I can remote monitor and be able to get alerts.

The other benefit of having 24/7 wi-fi is that I can get one of those fancy wi-fi T-stats for the workshop heater. My current set up is a base temp of 45 F near the furnace with a set back T-stat that brings the temp up to 55F for half an hour. If my schedule is near routine, I get there in time to override the temp till I leave. If I arrive hours later or even earlier than anticipated, its quite chilly as I wait for the temp to rise to a more comfortable working temp. It would be sweet to bump up the temp via my phone half an hour before I get there regardless of my schedule that day.

[JoeLee]

JoeLee:

WHat specific software, if any, are you using for your server to record and send you alerts?

No specific software. Just the software that is built into the camera. In the camera menu you can select to record to SD or any other external drive you want. I have a couple Western Digital servers, 2 TB.

The software in the camera lets me record up to I think 10K video clips and then they get written over.

I have that Blue Iris program, it's OK for home viewing on your laptop. I use Tiny Cam app on my phone.

JL.................

[Paul Alciatore]

I had to look up "NVR". Apparently it means Network Video Recorder and it is just a method that the security cameras use to record the video; it is not a method of sending that video from the camera to the central station where that NVR recorder is.

In reading about NVR, I looked at several security camera systems that use it and they had various methods of sending that video signal to the central recorder. Some use some form of wireless that they did not specify. Some used a good, old coaxial cable (RG-55 or foam coax as used by cable systems). And, even some that were described as wireless, still needed a way to get power to the cameras.

It sounds to me that you need to ask every possible question.

If you need it, WiFi can be very inexpensive to add at a location that has power.

[lakeside53]

I installed (many personally!) about 500 camera at work, over 220 in one location alone.... all POE, all tamper resistant, and if needed "edge" recording" (local SD that that buffers what is sent to the NVR). We have mid line power injection for some incase the POE cable is pulled or the server/ switch is damaged - still keeps recording.

We use AXIS cameras exclusively. Yep, many cheaper, but none as reliable and a huge product range.

Get a camera that outputs H-264. MJEG is a bandwidth hog. We average 5mbits/sec from each of our High res cameras; over 1/2 PByte of storage on the NVRs... need more. lol

To answer one of your questions the NVR doesn't care if it's POE or wireless or whatever - just a networked device. Smart cameras have auxiliary contacts that will activate an alarm, send you and email with pictures, audio recording, or text, or whatever you want, On motion detect, tamper - try removing a screw - and it knows what a guy with spray can looks like as they approach!. Oh, and get one or more with IR illumination - you'll get a perfect high res B&W image/video in a coal mine.

You don't need 5 meg for "ID". What you need is a reasonable number of pixels per inch/foot at the target. Use multiple cameras - one with an image filling say a doorway only needs to be "HD". If you do a wide angle then even 6meg pixels at 100 feet wide isn't going to show you a lot of detail (think how many pixels across a face it takes to see detail) . Set your camera (or NVR) motion detect to "target areas". Have it take say 1 frame per second unless motion is detected, then kick up to 15. On motion detect, have it send say 10 second before and after the event. Use it as a smart programable alarm. Strobe and alarms work wonders for petty crime, not so well on crack or heroin befuddled criminals. You can have your camera/nvr send you an event text pic/video, then you can decide to remotely trigger the alarm, let loose the dogs, or water cannon as you see fit.

[JoeLee]

I installed (many personally!) about 500 camera at work, over 220 in one location alone.... all POE, all tamper resistant, and if needed "edge" recording" (local SD that that buffers what is sent to the NVR). We have mid line power injection for some incase the POE cable is pulled or the server/ switch is damaged - still keeps recording.

We use AXIS cameras exclusively. Yep, many cheaper, but none as reliable and a huge product range.

Get a camera that outputs H-264. MJEG is a bandwidth hog. We average 5mbits/sec from each of our High res cameras; over 1/2 PByte of storage on the NVRs... need more. lol

To answer one of your questions the NVR doesn't care if it's POE or wireless or whatever - just a networked device. Smart cameras have auxiliary contacts that will activate an alarm, send you and email with pictures, audio recording, or text, or whatever you want, On motion detect, tamper - try removing a screw - and it knows what a guy with spray can looks like as they approach!. Oh, and get one or more with IR illumination - you'll get a perfect high res B&W image/video in a coal mine.

You don't need 5 meg for "ID". What you need is a reasonable number of pixels per inch/foot at the target. Use multiple cameras - one with an image filling say a doorway only needs to be "HD". If you do a wide angle then even 6meg pixels at 100 feet wide isn't going to show you a lot of detail (think how many pixels across a face it takes to see detail) . Set your camera (or NVR) motion detect to "target areas". Have it take say 1 frame per second unless motion is detected, then kick up to 15. On motion detect, have it send say 10 second before and after the event. Use it as a smart programable alarm. Strobe and alarms work wonders for petty crime, not so well on crack or heroin befuddled criminals. You can have your camera/nvr send you an event text pic/video, then you can decide to remotely trigger the alarm, let loose the dogs, or water cannon as you see fit.

Not sure what all this means.... edge recording, mid line power injection but it all seems more advanced than the average home security cameras are. Unfortunately for me I had to go wireless because it is way too much trouble to try and run cables from the shop to the house and the various points in and around the shop and house where I've put cameras. If I were building or remodeling then I would without a doubt run wires.

I checked out the Axis cameras. It looks like they no longer offer any wireless models. This seems to be the trend with most of the higher quality camera mfg.'s


JL..............

[CarlByrns]

CarlByrns:

I understand the effectiveness of an obnoxious alarm. My workshop is in the middle of a residential neighborhood. The idea of an obnoxious alarm going off inadvertently is not a good outcome. As is, I work to keep my noise level down so that neighbors are not affected.

The whole idea of an alarm is to attract immediate attention. A system that alerts law enforcement isn't by itself a bad thing, but the bad guys can grab all the high-value goodies and be long gone while your alarm silently lets them.

True story: A former customer of mine was a contractor who stored his equipment trailer (along with some other contractors) on one of those rental storage facilities. 24 surveillance, code-locked gate, ect. Thieves proceeded to remove every equipment trailer in one busy evening, right after the office closed. Got them all on high-def, can read the license plates off the truck they used.
That was five years ago. I can show you the stolen trailers- they're in a police impound lot, because the thieves are members of an organized crime syndicate and the trailers (and all the tools and materials in them) are evidence in a huge investigation that, at last count, hadn't produced any arrests.
Had the thieves been caught at the gate, they would have been arrested and the trailers returned.

"The idea of an obnoxious alarm going off inadvertently is not a good outcome." The idea of an alarm that doesn't attract immediate attention is a worse outcome.

[Sparky_NY]

Not sure what all this means.... edge recording, mid line power injection but it all seems more advanced than the average home security cameras are. Unfortunately for me I had to go wireless because it is way too much trouble to try and run cables from the shop to the house and the various points in and around the shop and house where I've put cameras. If I were building or remodeling then I would without a doubt run wires.

I checked out the Axis cameras. It looks like they no longer offer any wireless models. This seems to be the trend with most of the higher quality camera mfg.'s


JL..............

POE is power over ethernet. Its getting very common for cameras, including cheaper home type ones, to have this feature. Basically, it send the DC power to the camera over the ethernet cable, no separate power cable is needed, makes for a simpler neater install. To get that DC power on the ethernet cable there are a couple ways, a POE injector which is a small box placed in series with the ethernet cable, anywhere along its length, and the DC power supply connects to that small box. There are also POE switches, those are the same as a regular ethernet switch in function except they also perform the function of "inserting" the power on the ethernet cable, POE switches are a cleaner install for several cams rather than multiple POE injectors around for each camera, one switch powers all the cams plugged into it. Mid line power injection may now make sense to you, its simply putting that POE injector somewhere midpoint (give or take) in the cable to the camera (rather than at the end), this way if the cable is cut the camera still gets power, the signal to the recorder is lost because the cable is cut but the cam can still function and even record if it has its own memory card.

All the cameras I have are POE BUT they also have a DC power connector just in case you don't want to use POE.

[JoeLee]

POE is power over ethernet. Its getting very common for cameras, including cheaper home type ones, to have this feature. Basically, it send the DC power to the camera over the ethernet cable, no separate power cable is needed, makes for a simpler neater install. To get that DC power on the ethernet cable there are a couple ways, a POE injector which is a small box placed in series with the ethernet cable, anywhere along its length, and the DC power supply connects to that small box. There are also POE switches, those are the same as a regular ethernet switch in function except they also perform the function of "inserting" the power on the ethernet cable, POE switches are a cleaner install for several cams rather than multiple POE injectors around for each camera, one switch powers all the cams plugged into it. Mid line power injection may now make sense to you, its simply putting that POE injector somewhere midpoint (give or take) in the cable to the camera (rather than at the end), this way if the cable is cut the camera still gets power, the signal to the recorder is lost because the cable is cut but the cam can still function and even record if it has its own memory card.

All the cameras I have are POE BUT they also have a DC power connector just in case you don't want to use POE.

OK, the cameras I have will work either way. Wireless / 12v power supply or POE. It's next to impossible for me to run any wires to a camera mounted outside under the eves. I can't even get close to pushing a wire from the attic out to the eves. Just can't get in there. Even trying to push a fish wire from the outside into the attic is hit and miss. I remember running romex to my motion / flood lights.

Running an ethernet cable out the corner of a window, along an outside wall and along the edge of the soffit etc. to a camera is out of the question. It would have to exit the soffit where the camera is mounted and into the camera where it's out of site and inaccessible to vandals.

JL..............