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  • New Lathe for me

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ID:	1905512 Picked up a 1946 Logan 200 10" Lathe this morning,price was right and been wanting a smaller Lathe.It came with a 7-1/2" 3 jaw chuck that was installed around 30 yrs,3-1/2 thou runout so will be checking bearing.The 3 gears that run back gear all have broken teeth,luckily the two larger ones were new in pail of parts one is rusty as pic shows all powerfeed gears are good.

    Will be powering it with a DC Tread Mill motor for variable speed and using the Original flat pulleys with Polly Belt.Modifying the original design,motor will be directly under chip pan if blueprints are correct lol!

  • #2
    For under-drive, IIRC the headstock is notched to permit the belts to pass. The 200 was made with the drive box, and rear countershaft, prior to underdrive, so it does not have the cutouts, at least mine does not. You may be able to run on the center pulley (same size for both) and use the higher speed of the treadmill motor, but I bet you will still want the step pulley, which means you will need the notches.

    There is something strange about the spindle pulley, it has 2 steps and "something" on it. Maybe the one in the pan is the real one? or is it just the belt hanging over the smallest pulley?

    I have not had to do anything with my countershaft, but the pulley pinion I had to remake as it had a damaged tooth. If that is the third bad one it is not hard to do.

    yes, per statement in following post I strongly doubt the bearing will have anything to do with the three jaw (!) chuck being "out" only 3 thou or so.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 10-18-2020, 01:57 AM.
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

    Comment


    • #3
      check the chuck before diving into bearings.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
        For under-drive, IIRC the headstock is notched to permit the belts to pass. The 200 was made with the drive box, and rear countershaft, prior to underdrive, so it does not have the cutouts, at least mine does not. You may be able to run on the center pulley (same size for both) and use the higher speed of the treadmill motor, but I bet you will still want the step pulley, which means you will need the notches.

        There is something strange about the spindle pulley, it has 2 steps and "something" on it. Maybe the one in the pan is the real one? or is it just the belt hanging over the smallest pulley?

        I have not had to do anything with my countershaft, but the pulley pinion I had to remake as it had a damaged tooth. If that is the third bad one it is not hard to do.

        yes, per statement in following post I strongly doubt the bearing will have anything to do with the three jaw (!) chuck being "out" only 3 thou or so.
        The old belt is hanging on small pulley on Spindle,I will still incorporate the Flat Belt and alternate countershaft with motor underneath.No way to run Belt below Spindle.
        Originally posted by dian View Post
        check the chuck before diving into bearings.
        When I placed a wood board under Chuck and pryed up with approx 30 lbs got movement I mentioned.Spindle has to be removed for changing gears will inspect bearing when disassembled.

        Comment


        • #5
          So the 3 thou is vertical movement of the spindle in the bearings, not necessarily the same as chuck runout, which might be much worse. That chuck looks big for the lathe its on.
          'It may not always be the best policy to do what is best technically, but those responsible for policy can never form a right judgement without knowledge of what is right technically' - 'Dutch' Kindelberger

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Richard P Wilson View Post
            So the 3 thou is vertical movement of the spindle in the bearings, not necessarily the same as chuck runout, which might be much worse. That chuck looks big for the lathe its on.
            Sorry for my poor description,Vertical movement was 3 thou and runout was 4 thou.Yes the Chuck is oversize for but appears in great condition.

            Comment


            • #7
              congrats, that's a fun find! I need to make up a countershaft for an SB9 I just bought and I'll be using a treadmill motor too, so it'll be interesting to see what you come up with. I'll be making my own poly-v countershaft pulleys (or at least 2 of them) as I'm a big fan of poly-v belts and I can size the pulleys to get into an appropriate range for the spindle.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not sure about tread mill motor controllers but if it has a built in brake to stop the motor, it can cause problems with a large chuck. I occasionally use an 8” chuck when I need the capacity on my Logan. It will spin off of the spindle if I stop the motor through the controller. The large chuck at speed has the inertial to overcome the resistance of the threads. For this chuck I have to turn the power off and let it coast to a stop. Magnatec motor and Camco controller.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mattthemuppet View Post
                  congrats, that's a fun find! I need to make up a countershaft for an SB9 I just bought and I'll be using a treadmill motor too, so it'll be interesting to see what you come up with. I'll be making my own poly-v countershaft pulleys (or at least 2 of them) as I'm a big fan of poly-v belts and I can size the pulleys to get into an appropriate range for the spindle.
                  Thanks it was freind who had it, he gave it to me for free as he never used it so can spend some money on getting it running the way I want hopefully.I will be using the 3 step flat pulley on Jackshaft with poly-v but will be more compact than OEM setup.There will be a second Jackshaft under chip pan as Treadmill motor runs at 4800 so need more reduction,I'm going to have Max Spindle speed 1000-1200.


                  Originally posted by rickyb View Post
                  Not sure about tread mill motor controllers but if it has a built in brake to stop the motor, it can cause problems with a large chuck. I occasionally use an 8” chuck when I need the capacity on my Logan. It will spin off of the spindle if I stop the motor through the controller. The large chuck at speed has the inertial to overcome the resistance of the threads. For this chuck I have to turn the power off and let it coast to a stop. Magnatec motor and Camco controller.
                  The tread mill motor will coast to stop,I removed Chuck today it was really on there.Used a strap wrench on step pulley and hex shaft in Chuck,took several hits with hammer on wrench to break it free.


                  Have most of it dismantled today Spindle Bearing are very rough,will see if my Bearing Guru Guy can match up some for this.He said they have supplied Lathe Bearing in the past for various brands.Apron needs split Nuts and a bushing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The spindle bearings may be rough purely due to hardened grease. The original bearing on mine was due to that. I did not get it clean then, and bought a new bearing from Logan (it was not a good one, it was a C3 clearance).

                    Logan now has the proper ones. They are special, a double row zero clearance bearing, you will not get that off the shelf at a bearing house unless by accident. And you will need the right one unless you add a preload setup as I did.

                    The original may be cleanable, I just did not know how at the time. I may try cleaning my original, and if I succeed, I will put it back in.

                    The original bearings are rated something like 8000 lb, so no chuck is going to cause the slightest strain on the bearing, nor is anything that can be fitted in for turning..
                    1601

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Are these roller bearings? When I got my Raglan (UK) lathe, the spindlew as rough, so I took the bearings out and found some idiot had greased them rather than using oil. The Raglan handbook recommended washing the bearings out with white spirit. I did this in a white china bowl, and changed the white spirit 6 times before no more black bits appeared. Oiled the bearings and put them back in, and they ran perfectly. Don't automatically assume you've got to lash out on new bearings.
                      'It may not always be the best policy to do what is best technically, but those responsible for policy can never form a right judgement without knowledge of what is right technically' - 'Dutch' Kindelberger

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                        The spindle bearings may be rough purely due to hardened grease. The original bearing on mine was due to that. I did not get it clean then, and bought a new bearing from Logan (it was not a good one, it was a C3 clearance).

                        Logan now has the proper ones. They are special, a double row zero clearance bearing, you will not get that off the shelf at a bearing house unless by accident. And you will need the right one unless you add a preload setup as I did.

                        The original may be cleanable, I just did not know how at the time. I may try cleaning my original, and if I succeed, I will put it back in.

                        The original bearings are rated something like 8000 lb, so no chuck is going to cause the slightest strain on the bearing, nor is anything that can be fitted in for turning..
                        You may be right about the hardened grease,what's the correct cleaning procedure.I did see the Bearing on Logan's Site,my Bearing guy seems real knowledgeable about the zero clearance bearing and has sold them before,hope he has access to this size if needed.
                        That Chuck hanging there will be no issues for sure.


                        Originally posted by Richard P Wilson View Post
                        Are these roller bearings? When I got my Raglan (UK) lathe, the spindlew as rough, so I took the bearings out and found some idiot had greased them rather than using oil. The Raglan handbook recommended washing the bearings out with white spirit. I did this in a white china bowl, and changed the white spirit 6 times before no more black bits appeared. Oiled the bearings and put them back in, and they ran perfectly. Don't automatically assume you've got to lash out on new bearings.
                        These a ball bearings,hope cleaning will resolve the problem.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The correct cleaning is a good question.

                          New Departure, who made those bearings, recommended an alkaline cleaner, which I have found did not get the hardened grease out*. I tried purple cleaner, which did not appear to do anything. I tried various solvents, which also did nothing much.

                          The grease residue is quite difficult to remove, and those bearings are double-row with a shield on one side. That makes it doubly difficult to get everything out. Some remove the shield, but I'd be concerned about being able to put it back, and you do need it, it faces into the fairly open headstock.

                          Drying the bearing after using a water-based cleaner is also an issue. I have used WD40, relying on its "water displacing" effect, and I have used alcohol poured through or soaked into the bearing. Both seemed to work OK.


                          *Hardened grease is just really the "soap" (chemical term, not literally a cleaning soap) component of the grease, which is a metallic soap mixed with oil. The usual soaps are mostly not soluble in water, other than sodium or potassium soaps, so water based stuff may not be super effective unless it has other components that just cleaners.

                          The use of Pine-Sol was suggested to me, and it did work on a bearing I tried it on, but it discolored the bearing (turned it nearly black), and I am leery of using it on any important bearing like the spindle nose bearing. Solvents did not do much of anything.

                          Here are suggestions, some contradict the above or each other, so.....

                          https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...arings-331163/
                          1601

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When I bought my 49 *Logan 10, the grease was dried up in the head stock bearing. Sounded like a bad bearing when rotated. Given the originals were made of unobtanium, high cost from Logan for class 3's, and the J Tiers adding preload option, figured I'd give cleaning a try. It worked but I did have to eventually remove the rear shield to do so.

                            I alternated overnight soaks in Naptha (Coleman fuel / white gas) then automatic transmission fluid (ATF) blowing out with compressed air when switching. Twice I heated the bearing in a pan of ATF to try and melt out the old grease. After 3 to 5 days of improvement but still containing trapped stuck grease, I pulled the rear metal shield and repeated cleanings. Results were a smooth stock bearing. The rear metal shield was deformed and not able to be reinstalled. The rear round nut almost covers the entire bearing and I added a rubber ring (thin slice off a pvc drain pipe coupler) around the nut as a further deterrent to infiltration of crap.

                            Grease. I wanted what ever I used to be compatible with any minuscule remnants of the original grease. Narrowed my choices down to Aeroshell 14 or Sta-Plex extreme pressure red grease. Went with the Stayplex as it was available at the local auto parts place.

                            Disassembly. Lots of info on the web. I used a long piece of threaded rod and a round piece of pipe that fit over the head stock bearing to gently pull the spindle and bearing out of the head stock.

                            Let us know how you do.

                            edit- Just read J Tiers post that went in before mine. Good points and reminded me about how difficult cleaning was with the double rows. Worked at it at least a week. I think the hot ATF did help but think safety. Removing the rear shield was only done when I had no other choice. Even with my added external shield, I accept that it may shorten the life of my (already dead once) bearing, but we will jump that hurdle when / if we get there. I did acquire a spare used original ND for reserve.

                            *My Logan is a Wards Logan 10 (made for Montgomery Wards) but is essentially a Logan 200.

                            Last edited by DS_park; 10-19-2020, 12:45 PM.

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                            • #15
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                              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                              The correct cleaning is a good question.

                              New Departure, who made those bearings, recommended an alkaline cleaner, which I have found did not get the hardened grease out*. I tried purple cleaner, which did not appear to do anything. I tried various solvents, which also did nothing much.

                              The grease residue is quite difficult to remove, and those bearings are double-row with a shield on one side. That makes it doubly difficult to get everything out. Some remove the shield, but I'd be concerned about being able to put it back, and you do need it, it faces into the fairly open headstock.

                              Drying the bearing after using a water-based cleaner is also an issue. I have used WD40, relying on its "water displacing" effect, and I have used alcohol poured through or soaked into the bearing. Both seemed to work OK.


                              *Hardened grease is just really the "soap" (chemical term, not literally a cleaning soap) component of the grease, which is a metallic soap mixed with oil. The usual soaps are mostly not soluble in water, other than sodium or potassium soaps, so water based stuff may not be super effective unless it has other components that just cleaners.

                              The use of Pine-Sol was suggested to me, and it did work on a bearing I tried it on, but it discolored the bearing (turned it nearly black), and I am leery of using it on any important bearing like the spindle nose bearing. Solvents did not do much of anything.

                              Here are suggestions, some contradict the above or each other, so.....

                              https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...arings-331163/
                              Originally posted by DS_park View Post
                              When I bought my 49 *Logan 10, the grease was dried up in the head stock bearing. Sounded like a bad bearing when rotated. Given the originals were made of unobtanium, high cost from Logan for class 3's, and the J Tiers adding preload option, figured I'd give cleaning a try. It worked but I did have to eventually remove the rear shield to do so.

                              I alternated overnight soaks in Naptha (Coleman fuel / white gas) then automatic transmission fluid (ATF) blowing out with compressed air when switching. Twice I heated the bearing in a pan of ATF to try and melt out the old grease. After 3 to 5 days of improvement but still containing trapped stuck grease, I pulled the rear metal shield and repeated cleanings. Results were a smooth stock bearing. The rear metal shield was deformed and not able to be reinstalled. The rear round nut almost covers the entire bearing and I added a rubber ring (thin slice off a pvc drain pipe coupler) around the nut as a further deterrent to infiltration of crap.

                              Grease. I wanted what ever I used to be compatible with any minuscule remnants of the original grease. Narrowed my choices down to Aeroshell 14 or Sta-Plex extreme pressure red grease. Went with the Stayplex as it was available at the local auto parts place.

                              Disassembly. Lots of info on the web. I used a long piece of threaded rod and a round piece of pipe that fit over the head stock bearing to gently pull the spindle and bearing out of the head stock.

                              Let us know how you do.

                              edit- Just read J Tiers post that went in before mine. Good points and reminded me about how difficult cleaning was with the double rows. Worked at it at least a week. I think the hot ATF did help but think safety. Removing the rear shield was only done when I had no other choice. Even with my added external shield, I accept that it may shorten the life of my (already dead once) bearing, but we will jump that hurdle when / if we get there. I did acquire a spare used original ND for reserve.

                              *My Logan is a Wards Logan 10 (made for Montgomery Wards) but is essentially a Logan 200.
                              Thanks Guys I been spinning large Bearing in Varsol and blowing out with compressed air about 50 times still gook coming out.Bearing guy is checking availability but thought cleaning old grease out was a good option,he mentioned they don't call them Zero Clearance anymore but Precision Class is the New Terminology as he laughed.He said the etched # 4 that's in pic would indicate the snap ring groove was ground in later after it came off of assemble line.

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