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  • #16
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
    It's almost like cheating.........Electric motors have a large overload capability in many cases. Almost every electrical device is actually heat-limited for available power capacity. Efficiency drops like a stone in many cases with a significant overload, but power still goes up a bit until the overload gets crazy.

    Electric motors usually have between 150% and 300% overloaded max torque. Beyond that the torque increase with more current usually drops off. And they are often lighter than the equivalent IC motor, mostly because they leave out a lot of the power production process, it happens "elsewhere", while an IC engine has to have it all right there. Newer batteries are also lighter than older ones for the same capacity. Of course, as the batteries get more energy dense, they also get closer to being "bombs", just as the gasoline tank is.

    Gasoline engines, or diesel, are pretty much limited by the amount of oxygen packed into the cylinder. That's why a supercharger works.
    Emrax 348 would be a killer: 210kW continuous and 380kW for seconds-minutes from a 42kg electric motor!
    Dual-drive with 2 motors would be over 1000hp and only ~100lbs
    https://emrax.com/wp-content/uploads...graphs_5.4.pdf

    Batteries are in some ways more "bomb" than gasoline as they are self-contained. More like actual explosives in that regard. TNT is actually not that far in energy density compared to Li-ion battery (electrical energy density).
    And once they start spontaneous combustion they release more energy in the fire than gasoline fire. Combustion of Tesla 100PD battery is equivalent of 70 to 300 liters of gasoline.
    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MattiJ View Post

      Emrax 348 would be a killer: 210kW continuous and 380kW for seconds-minutes from a 42kg electric motor!
      Dual-drive with 2 motors would be over 1000hp and only ~100lbs
      https://emrax.com/wp-content/uploads...graphs_5.4.pdf

      Batteries are in some ways more "bomb" than gasoline as they are self-contained. More like actual explosives in that regard. TNT is actually not that far in energy density compared to Li-ion battery (electrical energy density).
      And once they start spontaneous combustion they release more energy in the fire than gasoline fire. Combustion of Tesla 100PD battery is equivalent of 70 to 300 liters of gasoline.
      Tell me about it, and top of that, Lipo batteries create oxygen when they burn, self supplying fuel. Absolute worst thing to have happen on a cargo airplane. Most of my flights are over the ocean for many hours. If there is a cargo fire, I'll be ditching in 20 minutes if I suspect its a battery fire. Self defeating of our fire suppression systems. At least the load master notifies me first of what hazmat is in the back. More I think about it, the more I hate this career.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RB211 View Post

        Tell me about it, and top of that, Lipo batteries create oxygen when they burn,
        Oh geeze did not know that - that's crazy and sounds about impossible to control...


        both gas and electric are capable of some crazy HP numbers in their extreme cases,,, but electric wins due to the traction control upon take offs, best you can do is keep the wheels in a very mild to on the edge slip for maximum traction and easy to do with electric but not so much with IC although they can shoot themselves in the foot and apply the brakes while accelerating,,, not a very "efficient" approach....

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        • #19
          Most electricity is still produced by a combustion process, that is the "cheating" part of electric motors, they run on energy that has been already converted to feed them specifically.

          You can look at it as "raw" energy vs "refined" energy. "Raw" energy has byproducts and various losses and inefficiencies built-in. The battery is holding "refined" energy, so naturally it is much easier to use efficiently and effectively.

          While not "loss-less", electricity is less "lossy" than an IC engine, simply because all THOSE losses have already happened before you get the electricity.
          CNC machines only go through the motions

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          • #20
            Oil people gotta live through the wind turbine electric cycle, then back to basics of new tech drilling/completions to tap mother nature big time.

            https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...-supercritical

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            • #21
              Well yeah, still burning fossil fuels to make electricity, but the benefits for the end user are much deeper. Less maintenance, lower cost to operate, more reliable, way better performance.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                Well yeah, still burning fossil fuels to make electricity, but the benefits for the end user are much deeper. Less maintenance, lower cost to operate, more reliable, way better performance.
                Well, the ACTUAL point was that the "refined" electricity is relatively lossless as applied to the motor. The whole point is that it was created by the fuel burning process, The heat energy was "refined" to exactly what the motor wants, and all the losses as well as extra equipment is "invisible", it all happens "somewhere else".

                You do not need any extra outside equipment to run an IC car. You can cook wood and get a gas that will run a car, and can have that equipment all ON the car. But using that "unrefined" form of energy makes things more lossy. it's like having an electric car, but having to haul the power plant with you.

                Hardly surprising that the motor is so effective, being that it is running on specially created "refined energy" perfectly suited to it. The REST OF the car is hidden from view back at the power plant. That's the part that actually makes the electric car possible.


                CNC machines only go through the motions

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                  The whole point is that it was created by the fuel burning process,
                  Not always, in New Zealand we have electricity from mainly renewable energy sources such as hydropower, geothermal power and increasingly wind energy.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Artful Bodger View Post

                    Not always, in New Zealand we have electricity from mainly renewable energy sources such as hydropower, geothermal power and increasingly wind energy.
                    Not true here, and the question seems to be oriented here.

                    Geothermal is a good one. Non-renewable, but probably good for hugely more than the foreseeable future, depending on how it is done. Hydropower is inherently variable.

                    The electricity supply you have is sufficient for the limited number of residents, and the relatively moderate year around temperatures which do not seem to have excessively low or high extremes. Your coldest temps in the cities seem to be about what we have in central US now, but we will have temps 30 to 50 F colder in January and through February./March. In summer, 20F higher in general here. North of here, cold temps will likely be 70F colder (to -40C).

                    It looks like our temperatures this week will be about like your summer, in other words, not by any means hot, but much warmer that usual..
                    CNC machines only go through the motions

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                    • #25
                      diesel: 0.26 euros/kwh
                      electricity: 0.53 euros/kwh

                      (kwh at crank, current german prices)

                      and thats on top of the ecological mess electric cars create.
                      Last edited by dian; 11-04-2020, 02:27 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                        Not true here, and the question seems to be oriented here.
                        .
                        Whatever, the point remains that the problem you see is with the electricity supply not with the electric car.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Artful Bodger View Post

                          Whatever, the point remains that the problem you see is with the electricity supply not with the electric car.
                          I do not see a problem. Why would you assume there is one?

                          I see an "advantage" that the EV has over the IC engined vehicle in power, (which is not an advantage in general, just an advantage in power capability). And the reason is partially with the car, and partially with the "system".

                          The comment is that the point of the power deal IS WITH THE CAR... it's hardly a surprise that the EV has power, when it is fed perfectly suited pure energy, which has already been converted to the best possible form for the EV, for the most loss-less use. The only more advantageous system would be long extension cords.... or the slightly more practical trolley wire, either of which eliminates the battery.

                          The IC engine has to operate with the losses inherent with the conversion process that is already done FOR the EV, outside of it.

                          And, the EV motor, like all electric motors, has few limits on it's torque/power, other than heating. Short term torque can be 300% of rated for certain types. An IC engine has physical limits that cut off power very closely to the designed power. You are not getting more than that unless you get more fuel and oxygen into it, i.e. change it. The electric motor tends to have more overload capability as a result. (The IC engine CAN be made to have more power. The new Ranger I drive has a little 4 cylinder engine. but it puts out 270 HP.)

                          That does not necessarily make the EV better, it is just one reason why the EV can, if so designed, have more extreme performance. The other reason is that an essential part of the EV is not actually included in it, it is located back at the power station.
                          Last edited by J Tiers; 11-04-2020, 12:25 PM.
                          CNC machines only go through the motions

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                          • #28
                            Most of my coworkers who are buying EV's are doing so for one main reason, Vrrrooooooooooom. Or is it Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee holy **** eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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                            • #29
                              Well, probably better that than a 600 HP sports car. But most of them are probably spring-loaded to the "zoom" setting. Goes with the territory.
                              CNC machines only go through the motions

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                Well, probably better that than a 600 HP sports car. But most of them are probably spring-loaded to the "zoom" setting. Goes with the territory.
                                Even the big tire nitrous street racers are getting their asses handed to them by Teslas. His roadster looking at using compressed air in a form of jet propulsion is only being done because they are at the technological limits of what the tires can physically do, supposedly. It's insane.

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