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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
    I never came close to destroying any machines when I was a green horn. For sure I'm not beyond screwing up, but when it happens I fault myself for it. Lets try it and hope for the best is for the small brains when there's a risk to life limb or machine .
    Hmm... I generally agree with you but I wonder whether you never destroyed any machines because you were far more sensible than the boys in the video or if it was because you weren't operating at the scale they are - i.e. they (potentially) have quite a large income as a result of their YouTube "careers" and therefore have access to machinery and tools that most people their age wouldn't have access to (because they are not yet financially established) OR they do have access but it's under the auspices of a more experienced person who can help mentor them. These kids have basically been turned loose with a wad of cash and lots of ambitions but, evidently, no one to help mentor them.

    I started buying and restoring large machines when I was younger than those two but I had (1) the advice of folks here and (2) a brother-in-law who, although not a machinist, had many years more experience than I moving heavy machinery around. I've made plenty of bone-head mistakes and I bet there would have been worse ones without the aforementioned guidance.

    I think the boy in the video feels pretty terrible about it and probably realizes it was his fault. It's just a real shame that youthful arrogance / sense-of-invincibility prevailed over common sense.

    Comment


    • #47
      The fact that this thread is up to four pages says more about this forum than it does about these guys. I know from experience that when I ask an on-topic question here that there's going to be harsh criticism about mistakes I've made out of ignorance. This is typically from the same few people who have nothing better to to than wait around to pounce on amateurs.

      I generally don't care about the BS I get here because I know that the people slinging it don't have real lives, but for a young guy figuring everything out from scratch it makes going it alone look really attractive.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Fasttrack View Post

        Hmm... I generally agree with you but I wonder whether you never destroyed any machines because you were far more sensible than the boys in the video or if it was because you weren't operating at the scale they are - i.
        or could have been just luck on my part but their number was up. I have young guys doing lifts everyday magnitudes heavier than that, but they are aware they have to know how to rig it etc. As I say, I wouldn't have them shot at dawn, but I do fault them just like I do myself if I screw up

        Accidents happen because you screwed up so if you don't want be considered at fault, don't screw up where life limb and antique machine is the cost. Its the same responsibility and care taken in every plant in the country....the coroner isn't going accept an Ooops as an answer.

        Can they be making that much money on utube? I'd not seen them before but it did strike me they have a lot of resources for a couple of green horns.
        Last edited by Mcgyver; 11-28-2020, 03:10 PM.
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

        Comment


        • #49
          Do not 100% agree about that "saying more about the forum" deal. We have some "safety nazis", who hate anything out of the ordinary, but by and large, folks either know what they are doing, or know that they do not know, and ask.

          Don't try to make this "our fault".

          Anyone with half of a reasonably mechanical oriented brain ought to be able to figure out how to safely move something when the issues are as grossly obvious as that video. I mean. the thing HAD to "feel" wobbly, like any load on a narrow pallet jack. Most folks with any experience at all would look at it and immediately see a problem.

          But, it's fairly possible that they played that out for "dramatic effect", just to improve viewership. It may be they knew better and did it on purpose for effect, possibly not figuring on the amount of resulting damage that actually occurred. Probably figured the "accident" * would just result in more drama as they picked it up and figured out or argued out, how to move it better.....

          But it is absolutely a terrible example for folks who arguably have no clue or they would not watch. The good thing is that likely the viewers are not machine users, and so the bad example is not harmful to them.

          The viewers belong to the group of society who believe that a good way to trim hedges is to pick up the lawnmower and run it along the hedge while holding it by the blade housing.

          I agree with McGyver. An "accident" is when a rated sling breaks due to an unseen or hidden defect, etc. Something that is not visible, (i.e. not because it is already half torn across).

          It is not an "accident" if the sling is under-rated for the load because nobody bothered to check what the load weighed. THAT is just negligence, and any court would rightly find in favor of an innocent plaintiff (or possibly the defendant, if they made the sling) on the basis of negligence.

          The "incident" in the video was blatantly foreseeable, they "knew or should have known" that the method of moving was a problem. It was NOT an "accident".
          Last edited by J Tiers; 11-28-2020, 03:35 PM.
          3751 6193 2700 3517

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

          If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Commander_Chaos View Post
            The fact that this thread is up to four pages says more about this forum than it does about these guys. I know from experience that when I ask an on-topic question here that there's going to be harsh criticism about mistakes I've made out of ignorance. This is typically from the same few people who have nothing better to to than wait around to pounce on amateurs.

            I generally don't care about the BS I get here because I know that the people slinging it don't have real lives, but for a young guy figuring everything out from scratch it makes going it alone look really attractive.
            Nothing wrong with going it alone. Everyone has an opinion, sometimes you just don't want any outside opinions.
            The single best advice for a new person that a new person never accepts is this. Start with a knee mill like a Bridgeport in good condition, and nothing smaller than a 12" lathe. They then usually run off and buy a mini lathe with all the bells and whistles for 1200, and a round column mill.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
              Can they be making that much money on utube? I'd not seen them before but it did strike me they have a lot of resources for a couple of green horns.
              I've been subscribed to Alec's channel since he was much younger and working in a rented s***hole over in the UK. He has amassed quite a large following since the Blade/blacksmithing market is much larger than the machining market. He has also been responsible for a lot of young men and women getting their hands dirty and doing something with their lives besides wasting them on sports and video games. He does know a fair amount about forging and knife making, but not so much about machine work.

              He has a pretty large YouTube audience and has actually put in the work to get it. Besides what he's making off the channel, he has his own line of tools he sells online, some of which they make inhouse, others are bought in and marked up and he recently launched his own design Anvil which he has produced domestically. Has he still got a lot to learn? Yes, but them we all do no matter our age.

              Basically he's not exactly just a rich kid building a business with daddy's money.

              I just need one more tool,just one!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post

                Accidents happen because you screwed up so if you don't want be considered at fault, don't screw up where life limb and antique machine is the cost. Its the same responsibility and care taken in every plant in the country....the coroner isn't going accept an Ooops as an answer.
                Oh I definitely agree but I don't think the issue here is whether or not the boy was at fault. Clearly he screwed up and is lucky that the cost was "only" the damage to the hammer. I'm just suggesting that the environment was very different than a plant or factory. You may have plenty of young employees doing much more difficult things than moving a couple thousand pounds of hammer frame around, but I assume you either hired them because they were qualified to do that or they've been trained how to do that - even if it's just on-the-job training by working with more experienced employees.

                What I'm saying is that these YouTube "super stars" may have the money to play like they're real businesses (renting industrial properties, buying / leasing lifting equipment, buying large machine tools, etc.). But they're not - they're basically home-shop guys trying to figure all this out without the advantage of experience or formalized training. Which can be quite dangerous! It's absolutely still their fault. I think a dose of humility and the willingness to learn from others (e.g. through forums and the like) could prevent these kind of accidents.

                I guess I'm reflecting more on the overall condition that leads to these kinds of mistakes than the mistake itself. The fact that this individual made a mistake and toppled a piece of machinery isn't really interesting to me. Mistakes happen all the time, even with trained individuals (remember the video someone posted here of the excavator being dropped down a shaft?!) but what IS interesting to me is this YouTube phenomenon. I find it strange. If I'm going to watch someone work, I want to watch a master at their trade - someone I can learn from. I don't want to live vicariously through someone else as they make mistakes and try to figure things out... I can do that just fine on my own!
                Last edited by Fasttrack; 11-28-2020, 04:07 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                  The single best advice for a new person that a new person never accepts is this. Start with a knee mill like a Bridgeport in good condition, and nothing smaller than a 12" lathe. They then usually run off and buy a mini lathe with all the bells and whistles for 1200, and a round column mill.
                  It's easy to say, but fairly intimidating for a total new bee. I give that advice myself, but only two people I know have ever taken it, mostly because I helped them move stuff. Otherwise they would end up like Will in the video with a machine they aren't familiar with moving/setting up.

                  I just need one more tool,just one!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post

                    I can. Not like I'd have them shot at dawn, but I fault them for trying like that. When my kids were little and something got broken, the excuse was "it was an accident". I'd explain no, its your fault, you messed up. Accidents happen when you don't asses risk, are not careful, didn't think things through, didn't seek appropriate knowledge/counsel before acting and so on. Its an important life lesson that really reduced accidents. In the plant, same thing - its vital all employees take responsibility for making sure enough care is taken that accidents don't happen. Its something all should buy into on an ongoing basis. I never came close to destroying any machines when I was a green horn. For sure I'm not beyond screwing up, but when it happens I fault myself for it. Lets try it and hope for the best is for the small brains when there's a risk to life limb or machine .
                    Ya, that's all a given, but what I was referring to was the idea that these machines we play with are sacred relics. They aren't, the Hammer in question was a broken up basket case when Will got it. It has been shown to be a machine who's condition was well past the point of being scrap. If it had been a more common machine like a lathe or a mill it most likely would have been scrapped already. It only survived because Hammers are a bit more scarce and young guys starting out resort to reviving a corpse or building new from scratch. My point being, trying and failing is better than never trying at all.
                    I just need one more tool,just one!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I just don't buy the story that these two are innocent kids trying new stuff. They are wildly successful on Youtube(good for them, I'm happy for them in that regard), their livelihood is dependent on driving in viewership, subscribers, etc. When you have millions of subscribers, you better believe they have a production crew, maybe even writers.
                      It just seems too plausible that the entire point of this power hammer was to do exactly this, topple over.
                      Remember their last "drama" video with the 10ee that was fully restored, get destroyed by the shipper? In that case, it was legitimate sorrow felt, but probably gave them the idea for this.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        As an individual, hobbyist, home shop person, think about this.
                        Twenty or thirty years ago, how would you acquire machine moving and rigging knowledge? Read Audel Millrights book, take a night school class, maybe learn from somebody at work or a neighbor, if you are lucky.
                        How would you learn today? Internet search, ask here or on one or more rigging forums, where someone may have moved the exact same machine. Chances of success are so much greater.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                          The single best advice for a new person that a new person never accepts is this. Start with a knee mill like a Bridgeport in good condition, and nothing smaller than a 12" lathe. They then usually run off and buy a mini lathe with all the bells and whistles for 1200, and a round column mill.
                          Lots of people don't take it because it is pretty terrible advice for a LOT of people. I have noticed that some folks here assume their own desires and projected needs are the same as everyone else's, which is quite unlikely. A huge number of people are simply curious about machining, or have the occasional need for pretty simple lathe parts, and don't have have the aspiration to build an engine or whatnot from scratch. I would guess that MOST people just want to dabble and learn, and industrial machines would just be a waste of space, money and effort.

                          Some of us have been machining our whole lives, and perhaps sometimes forget that WE are the oddballs. Massive quantities of mini lathes are sold, so they must fulfill the need of many purchasers. There is nothing wrong with that. If they find that they have a greater need, then they can upgrade (and probably get most of their money back on the small lathe, or even keep it as a second). There are as many individual needs and circumstances as there are people.
                          Different strokes.

                          Location: North Central Texas

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Joel View Post
                            Lots of people don't take it because it is pretty terrible advice for a LOT of people. I have noticed that some folks here assume their own desires and projected needs are the same as everyone else's, which is quite unlikely. A huge number of people are simply curious about machining, or have the occasional need for pretty simple lathe parts, and don't have have the aspiration to build an engine or whatnot from scratch. I would guess that MOST people just want to dabble and learn, and industrial machines would just be a waste of space, money and effort.

                            Some of us have been machining our whole lives, and perhaps sometimes forget that WE are the oddballs. Massive quantities of mini lathes are sold, so they must fulfill the need of many purchasers. There is nothing wrong with that. If they find that they have a greater need, then they can upgrade (and probably get most of their money back on the small lathe, or even keep it as a second). There are as many individual needs and circumstances as there are people.
                            Different strokes.
                            A true test would be the number of new people who start with a mini lathe or round column mill and eventually wind up with a knee mill and 12"+ lathe. I'd wager 50% of those that stick with it.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Joel View Post
                              Lots of people don't take it because it is pretty terrible advice for a LOT of people. I have noticed that some folks here assume their own desires and projected needs are the same as everyone else's, which is quite unlikely. A huge number of people are simply curious about machining, or have the occasional need for pretty simple lathe parts, and don't have have the aspiration to build an engine or whatnot from scratch. I would guess that MOST people just want to dabble and learn, and industrial machines would just be a waste of space, money and effort.

                              Some of us have been machining our whole lives, and perhaps sometimes forget that WE are the oddballs. Massive quantities of mini lathes are sold, so they must fulfill the need of many purchasers. There is nothing wrong with that. If they find that they have a greater need, then they can upgrade (and probably get most of their money back on the small lathe, or even keep it as a second). There are as many individual needs and circumstances as there are people.
                              Different strokes.
                              I prefer the advice that people should make everything they want and would otherwise buy, for the first months of shop operation.... If there is any way to make it with the tools you have, then you make it. Too many people seem to want to "buy their way to having a complete shop", and then they don't know how to use it. As a result you see people saying "I'd like to, but I don't have the experience to do that". So, get the experience....
                              3751 6193 2700 3517

                              Keep eye on ball.
                              Hashim Khan

                              If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Perhaps it is an odd way of looking at things, but it is how I try to look at beginners, their needs and how to meet them.
                                I try to imagine that I am, once again, a 14 yr old, who knows very little about our hobby, but who has somehow been fired up with the desire to own, or perhaps build his own working models.
                                I had a fair start in a way, having already been involved with full size traction engines and steam rollers, but for the thoughts about todays beginners I discount that experience.
                                So our imaginary beginner perhaps has a space for a bit of a shop, perhaps a corner of a basement, or simply a bit of space in his or her bedroom.
                                Well .the obvious place to begin would seem to be either a kit model. or perhaps a complete one needing some attention. Whatever, it was would have to be small and inexpensive. Perhaps a birthday or Christmas might bring a Mamod or Wilesco or even some ancient steamer from a relative.
                                Now we have a beginner needing to know two basic things, how to run the model, if it is runnable. or secondly, how to repair it if it needs some ( Hopefully minor) repair.
                                This is where the Internet CAN be invaluable. There is lots of information on there. I am pleased that so much is helpful and useful. But I get upset when I see stupidity displayed and even encouraged.
                                Perhaps some of you can imagine where this post could take us if continued. My adventure has lasted a lifetime, and is still developing.
                                What wouldyou suggest my imaginary newcomer should do next .
                                Regards David Powell.

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