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  • #46
    He is talking CNC, obviously, since there ARE no "modern lathes" made that are not CNC for any serious purpose. He's basically just raising the post count, not adding useful information

    For small manual machines, sold typically to hobby and small shop folks, the chinese have ditched ANY form of settable threading device, and returned to what is effectively a change gear design.

    And, worse yet, for very small, and apparently now the lower end of medium machines, they have even ditched the pulley or gear spindle drive in favor of an "electronic speed control". Looks very modern to the ignorant, but works like crap in terms of actual use cutting metal.

    Both trends do, of course, make for a cheaper machine, because otherwise the cost of a new "hobby" lathe would rise too far to have any market.

    Originally posted by Bented View Post

    Modern lathes do not use "gear boxes", that is a feature from the past.
    And an excellent advance I might add.
    Tough on you.

    You know exactly what is meant.... so never mind.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 12-19-2020, 11:38 AM.
    CNC machines only go through the motions.

    Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
    Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
    Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
    I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
    Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Bented View Post

      Better paint work it would appear.
      I prefer a machine with pristine paint work rather then one that works, this is a personal choice of course.
      I also will never operate a used machine, scratches, wear, paint discolored by coolant, dirt, oil residue and chips, no thank you!
      How does a nicer paint job make the lathe turn better????????????????????????

      There are loads of machines out there that are battle scarred and still work great. My lathe gets the chips vacuumed up and the ways and other important parts get cleaned and oiled but it is covered in oil and small bits of swarf that would need hours to clean off. I don't because I'm in my shop most days using it. What is the point of making it squeaky clean at the end of the day and then mess it up again the next. Does paining a lathe so it looks pretty make it work better. No, so why worry about it. What a lathe represents is what you can do with it not how it looks. It sounds like you spend more time being fussy with your lathe then using it for its intended purpose. I don't!


      Why aren't there manual machines made here, well industry quit using them and amateurs can't afford them so what else would happen.
      Last edited by loose nut; 12-19-2020, 11:39 AM.
      The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

      Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

      Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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      • #48
        Bent Ed comes here to tweak the noses of those stupid hobby folks. Don't take the bait.


        Yes, he was being sarcastic.... as usual.
        CNC machines only go through the motions.

        Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
        Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
        Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
        I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
        Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by loose nut View Post

          How does a nicer paint job make the lathe turn better????????????????????????

          There are loads of machines out there that are battle scarred and still work great. My lathe gets the chips vacuumed up and the ways and other important parts get cleaned and oiled but it is covered in oil and small bits of swarf that would need hours to clean off. I don't because I'm in my shop most days using it. What is the point of making it squeaky clean at the end of the day and then mess it up again the next. Does paining a lathe so it looks pretty make it work better. No, so why worry about it. What a lathe represents is what you can do with it not how it looks. It sounds like you spend more time being fussy with your lathe then using it for its intended purpose. I don't!


          Why aren't there manual machines made here, well industry quit using them and amateurs can't afford them so what else would happen.
          He was being sarcastic.
          21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
          1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

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          • #50
            Originally posted by loose nut View Post
            amateurs can't afford them so what else would happen.
            Its not can't afford, its a choice. A choice to save for a long time, only have one machine tool etc. e.g. lots of home shop targeted quality lathes were made and bought in the past despite the expense. Low cost lathes came along and the market made achoice and flocked to them
            Last edited by Mcgyver; 12-19-2020, 12:12 PM.
            in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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            • #51
              Delete ..wrong topic..
              Last edited by 754; 12-19-2020, 01:59 PM.

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              • #52
                I wonder if we didn't see a bit of this idea back when Grizzly first offered what was supposed to be a better class of machine under the old South Bend name? Did anyone look at or buy those?

                I know I was down to their Bellingham showroom and looked at them and I had to admit to being fairly impressed with what I saw. No chance to tear them open to inspect the spleens or anything but the look and the feel of how stuff worked seemed like it was up there. And noticeably better than the lower priced budget machines on the other side of the floor. But at the time that they were first introduced they were about 3x the cost of the low end options for comparable size machines. That was a bit steep for a hobbyist when a 12x36 was going to cost the same as a nice medium sedan.

                Looking at their listings just now for possible "better quality" I see that they have a "Heavy 10" 10x30 model under that old South Bend name for $6500 on sale. It appears to be more or less on par size and weight wise with the old original Heavy 10. And it would appear to fit in with the idea of paying a bit more for a well done basic machine.

                Now before you all go off on another "imported junk" or "THEY STOLE OUR NAMES" venting try to set that aside and consider it on the surface as a possible machine for a hobbyist. You're starting out and know next to nothing other than having used the one in school years ago to make a scriber. Yes there are used machines but you don't trust yourself to know what to look for in a used machine so you are committed to buying new. Would you pay $7500 for a 10x30 if the reviews indicated that it was well made both on the outside as well as the inside and that the details were done properly?
                Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                  For small manual machines, sold typically to hobby and small shop folks, the chinese have ditched ANY form of settable threading device, and returned to what is effectively a change gear design.
                  Hmmm....among my 'small manual machines' is a Chinese 12x36 lathe. Cutting threads is a real chore for example cutting metric threads 0.4 to 1.75mm requires me to set TWO KNOBS and if I want to cut coarse metric (up to 7mm) I MUST CHANGE A GEAR!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Richard P Wilson View Post
                    In my ignorance, never having owned a machine newer than about 1990, what do modern lathes use instead of gearboxes for selecting feeds and threading pitches? I'm talking manual machines here, not CNC machining centres.
                    Do not confuse "turning center" with "lathe". 40 years ago companies began making machines with NC drives some of which sold well such as the Bridgeport EZ Trak mills and EZ Path lathes.
                    These are machines that are manual with servo drives instead of gear trains and are very easy to use, any feedrate within the machines limits can be used for turning and threading.
                    These machines are the bridge between manual and full CNC, in fact a brand new 2020 Haas TL1 toolroom lathe may be operated mostly as a manual lathe would be used if desired.

                    A BP EZ Path lathe would be a perfect home shop machine, well made and very simple to operate or program for simple turning operations.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BCRider View Post
                      I wonder if we didn't see a bit of this idea back when Grizzly first offered what was supposed to be a better class of machine under the old South Bend name? Did anyone look at or buy those?

                      I know I was down to their Bellingham showroom and looked at them and I had to admit to being fairly impressed with what I saw. No chance to tear them open to inspect the spleens or anything but the look and the feel of how stuff worked seemed like it was up there. And noticeably better than the lower priced budget machines on the other side of the floor. But at the time that they were first introduced they were about 3x the cost of the low end options for comparable size machines. That was a bit steep for a hobbyist when a 12x36 was going to cost the same as a nice medium sedan.

                      Looking at their listings just now for possible "better quality" I see that they have a "Heavy 10" 10x30 model under that old South Bend name for $6500 on sale. It appears to be more or less on par size and weight wise with the old original Heavy 10. And it would appear to fit in with the idea of paying a bit more for a well done basic machine.

                      Now before you all go off on another "imported junk" or "THEY STOLE OUR NAMES" venting try to set that aside and consider it on the surface as a possible machine for a hobbyist. You're starting out and know next to nothing other than having used the one in school years ago to make a scriber. Yes there are used machines but you don't trust yourself to know what to look for in a used machine so you are committed to buying new. Would you pay $7500 for a 10x30 if the reviews indicated that it was well made both on the outside as well as the inside and that the details were done properly?
                      YMMV. I didn't read a single post on the "other site", the SB sub-forum, which gave it the glowing praise you did. I believe one or more guys over there bought one and weren't thoroughly impressed by the features, fit or finish of a rebranded Taiwanese lathe that didn't resemble any SB of the past.

                      If I wasn't confident in my evaluation skills, I'd buy used from a machinery dealer.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BCRider View Post
                        Would you pay $7500 for a 10x30 if the reviews indicated that it was well made both on the outside as well as the inside and that the details were done properly?
                        On who's word? How would you know? Basic branding, more or less brand = trust/expectation. The brands that you trust be quality took a long time to get that high ground. Grizzly selling a 7500 US$ hobby lathe is going to fail. Same thing if Yugo made a car as expensive as an S Class Benz. Even if it was as good, no one's going to pay 100,000 for it. There's a consumer expectation of price / quality with a brand and trying move it into a different snack bracket usually doesn't work. Move it down, it damages the valued high position (talk to me about Klein tools lol). Moving it up usually doesn't work well, not unless you spend huge amounts over time and it still usually fails. Its usually considered dunce cap marketing to try undo the position you brand in the consumers mind.
                        Last edited by Mcgyver; 12-19-2020, 04:22 PM.
                        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                        • #57
                          It's 2020, you shouldn't have to turn knobs or levers, or even dick around with gears. Push a few buttons and cut any thread your heart desires. Anything else is so 1920's.
                          Anything built to a price point has limitations to meet that price point, especially considering a profit must be realized on top of that price point.
                          It's cheaper to go ELS than it is to tool up to mass produce gears and use gears in a machine tool.
                          No difference in the cockpit, glass cockpits are far cheaper and more reliable, simpler than the old analog gauges, why the old 6 pack is going away.

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                          • #58
                            There was some pretty cool Metal Working Machines made in 1920’s and earlier,Arbor Presses for example Late 1800 to present no design changes at all,they just work.

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                            • #59
                              Reggie and Mcguyver. I don't have any personal contact with THAT particular lathe. And I didn't look up any reviews of it. Perhaps I messed the question up by using an actual example. Let's forget about this Heavy 10 case and think more generically.

                              The point I was trying to make was asking who as a purely hobby focused person would pay roughly 50% more if they knew that they were buying a better made machine tool? Would they do so or would the lower cost more roughly made machine that on the outside looks just as good lure them in? It would appear that the market answered that some time ago. Which is why we are where we are now.

                              Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                              • #60
                                Grizzly has at least 14 machines with prices above, or very substantially above your $7500. I expect they would "allow" a hobby user to buy one. Their most expensive unit is $102,500, and the number of "hobby" machines is pretty limited. That expensive on has a spindle bore of 9", and is a 38" x 212" machine.

                                Originally posted by The Artful Bodger View Post

                                Hmmm....among my 'small manual machines' is a Chinese 12x36 lathe. Cutting threads is a real chore for example cutting metric threads 0.4 to 1.75mm requires me to set TWO KNOBS and if I want to cut coarse metric (up to 7mm) I MUST CHANGE A GEAR!
                                AS I (and others) have said before, in the 12 x and 14x is where the better features start. At least with some "brands" (names of importers).

                                Also.... How old is that lathe?

                                Within the last few years those features have been cut out. Back before 2000, lots of small asian imports had a full QCGB. Then there were ones where you change a gear to switch ranges, but still had 7 or 8 choices. Finally, we have come to ones that do the reverse.... you change gears to get the pitch in what used to be the right hand lever, but the left hand lever is a knob to change ranges.

                                Here is a batch of Grizzly products.

                                Grizzly 10 x 22 G0602 Partial QCGB, pulley change speeds 150-2400 $1550

                                Grizzly SB1007 "heavy 10" Reasonable QCGB, geared head 55- 2200 $6500 (Was $7500)

                                Grizzly G8688 7 x 12 Change gears only, electronic speed control, one range change. 0-2500/0-1100 rpm $725

                                Grizzly G0768 8 x 16" change gear, electronic speed control 50-1000 / 100-2000 $1350

                                Grizzly M1099 10 x 26 partial QCGB, belt changes 150-2400 $1995

                                Grizzly G9972Z 11 x 26" Partial gearbox, belt change speeds 150-2400 $1950
                                Last edited by J Tiers; 12-19-2020, 05:33 PM. Reason: added "was" price
                                CNC machines only go through the motions.

                                Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                                Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                                Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                                I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                                Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                                Comment

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