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  • #91
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    There are 10 change gears included with the machine, which allow all the threads and feeds mentioned on any of the charts when combined with the QCB

    It is a fair bit of money. But I am just laughing like crazy as I see you folks picking it apart on this or that detail.

    You are SO SPOILED.....

    There are enough used machines around that all of us here have acquired new or used machines for silly-low money. That $7500 "SB" would have cost about $375 in 1940 or so, applying the approximate inflation rates (there are so many charts, you can pick your own rate, I used 20x which seems about right).

    Considering that many of us bought machines for around $500, they would have cost about $25 in the 1940s, using the same rate. And, in fact, machines like the POS "AA / 109", the original of the "7 x 12" type machine, did in fact cost around $25 new back then.

    Atlas machines cost as much as a couple hundred bucks back then, which would now be about $4000. So what you SHOULD be asking yourself is whether the "SB" is enough better than an Atlas that you would pay maybe 2x the price of an Atlas change gear machine for it.

    Put in those terms, your answer is very likely to be "Of course!".
    Cost of living and taxes take up much more of a person's expendable income today. Back then a kid could hustle and buy himself a new car too. Apples and Oranges.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by RB211 View Post

      Cost of living and taxes take up much more of a person's expendable income today. Back then a kid could hustle and buy himself a new car too. Apples and Oranges.
      PROVE THAT.

      Back then, a lot of folks barely made the rent every month. And taxes were up to 90% of income, not the paltry few percent the rich pay now, if they pay anything (our president seems to have paid a big $750 for several years, and he is a billionaire).

      Your "apples and oranges" is complete BS. Were you alive then? I was around in the 1950s, and what you are saying is just flat baloney.

      What IS different, is that now so many people think they are entitled to a lot of "stuff".... So what happens is that people buy a lot of "fluff", a bigger house, (maybe ANY house, a lot of people rented back then), two fancy cars, instead of one functional car, etc, etc.

      Bottom line is that people now CREATE their own "higher cost of living", because they just feel entitled to all that. I asked my broker if he got a lot of Clients from the "richer areas of town". He just laughed.... he said that a lot of those folks are so stretched because they bought the big house, the two Daimler cars, the private school for little Brandon and little Penelope etc, etc that they have nothing to invest. The folks with investable money are NOT from the outwardly "rich" areas, they are the folks who live on less than they earn.

      I know at least one who was doing that, and when he lost his sales job, he could not even do the payments for a couple of months out of savings... lost the house, and the cars, etc. Crazy. Ended up he shot himself, and left the mess to his wife (daughter of friends of ours).

      There are folks living in "adequate" (not huge) houses who are multiple millionaires with most of it invested and earning them a nice income. it's a choice, not a demand. I know some of those folks, too.

      I also know auto factory workers who have two cars, a boat, a lake house, etc, etc. That was unheard of back then. Of course, those auto workers have nothing but pension and SS to live on in retirement, they spent it all. When they were getting a lot of overtime, they just spent more.
      Last edited by J Tiers; 12-28-2020, 01:32 PM.
      CNC machines only go through the motions.

      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by The Artful Bodger View Post


        Hey Hey, who said anything about a hairdresser? Seventy-four in a couple of weeks but I can still wrangle the clippers...

        Click image for larger version Name:	JohnShearing.jpg Views:	0 Size:	73.5 KB ID:	1918467
        lol there you go --- you just made it honorable, For the record i was just using it as a figure of speech --- actually in the book "Bored of the Rings" it was a hefty insult and I carried it away from that... Nothing to freak out about JT just try to relax a little...

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post

          .....Nothing to freak out about JT just try to relax a little...
          As I recall, AK, it was YOU that freaked..... just sayin......😉
          CNC machines only go through the motions.

          Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
          Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
          Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
          I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
          Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

            As I recall, AK, it was YOU that freaked..... just sayin......😉
            No --- it was Moxie who said it to Pepsi, or visa versa --- can't remember that far back lol I think Bilbo Baggins was "Dildo Bugger" crazy book but very funny good read....
            Last edited by A.K. Boomer; 12-28-2020, 01:37 PM.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
              There are enough used machines around that all of us here have acquired new or used machines for silly-low money. That $7500 "SB" would have cost about $375 in 1940 or so, applying the approximate inflation rates (there are so many charts, you can pick your own rate, I used 20x which seems about right).

              Considering that many of us bought machines for around $500, they would have cost about $25 in the 1940s, using the same rate. And, in fact, machines like the POS "AA / 109", the original of the "7 x 12" type machine, did in fact cost around $25 new back then.

              Atlas machines cost as much as a couple hundred bucks back then, which would now be about $4000. So what you SHOULD be asking yourself is whether the "SB" is enough better than an Atlas that you would pay maybe 2x the price of an Atlas change gear machine for it.

              Put in those terms, your answer is very likely to be "Of course!".
              While your numbers for inflation are good, the comparison isn’t really correct on trying to compare a 1940s atlas adjusted for inflation to the 2020 Southbend to see if it is worth double.

              You need to pick a 2020 lathe currently out in the $4000 range in the similar class and ask yourself if the Southbend is really worth double that.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                Back then a kid could hustle and buy himself a new car too. Apples and Oranges.
                Cars are an impossible (and unreasonable comparison). You simply cannot buy a vehicle that even remotely compares. Even the $hittiest car available today is light years improved to a rather dramatic degree (more reliable, performs better in every respect, is safer, more comfortable, less emissions, etc.). Adjusted for inflation, cars from our era are CHEAPER. Drive an expensive, high-performance car built in 1960 and tell me how impressed you are. Driving something from the early 50's might make you laugh, or possibly, cry.
                The typical house is far from the same as well, but the disparity is not quite so dramatic.


                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                Bottom line is that people now CREATE their own "higher cost of living", because they just feel entitled to all that.
                And is the primary driver for the fact that most households now REQUIRE two incomes to just 'survive'.

                Location: North Central Texas

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by oxford View Post

                  While your numbers for inflation are good, the comparison isn’t really correct on trying to compare a 1940s atlas adjusted for inflation to the 2020 Southbend to see if it is worth double.

                  You need to pick a 2020 lathe currently out in the $4000 range in the similar class and ask yourself if the Southbend is really worth double that.
                  That seems silly.

                  You do not even know the quality level of the fitting etc of the SB, and you plan to compare it to one we already are pretty sure is just "so-so" at best? "Ah", you say... "we saw the scruffy surfaces on the outside, so we KNOW the rest of them inside are just as bad".

                  That hardly even requires comment, but in case anyone is a bit slow on the uptake, NO the surfaces do not indicate the rest of the machine. We've already discussed the issues with catalog samples etc very early n the process, so it is unlikely that there is any such relation.

                  And there is NO necessary relation, back in the 40s and 50s, those older machines, that WERE built correctly as to the working surfaces, still had scruffy outside surfaces, because the money was put to the important things

                  Perhaps you buy used machines on "bling", so a nice paint job adds hundreds of dollars to the price you will pay? You are reacting the same way to this

                  But that was not the point.... the point was that most are too spoiled by low prices and used equipment. We were discussing the "huge price". Folks cannot even relate to the difference between prices then and now, "then" being a time when dollars were actual monetary units of significance, and a similar lathe cost hundreds of them, while "used" machinery was not commonly available as it is now.

                  A new 10EE costs about $100,000..... and it is just a little bitty 10 x 24 or so machine.... Why do you not whine about that?

                  And, remind me again how much a little bitty Myford lathe cost new... when you could still get them new? Was it not (gasp choke) around $7500 in the US? I think so....... and folks complained they were not as good as they had been. For sure they were just a re-warmed ancient design....but ooh-ah, they were a "real Myford" so all was well..... Meh.....

                  Nope, until we know if the new SB "heavy 10" is made right inside, there is just no way to understand it's "worth". All the snivelling and whining is in vain.

                  It may be an expensive POS, or it may be well made, time will tell.
                  CNC machines only go through the motions.

                  Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                  Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                  Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                  I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                  Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    This picture shows the fit and finish to be expected with the South Bend..
                    Click image for larger version Name:	SouthBendWTF.jpg Views:	2 Size:	9.5 KB ID:	1918399

                    not even my CQ6230A (which you likely call a POS) shows such shoddy work.

                    I do not for a moment accept your 'catalog sample' comments and must conclude the pseudo 'South Bend' is somewhat of a pig in lipstick (poorly applied).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                      That seems silly.

                      You do not even know the quality level of the fitting etc of the SB, and you plan to compare it to one we already are pretty sure is just "so-so" at best? "Ah", you say... "we saw the scruffy surfaces on the outside, so we KNOW the rest of them inside are just as bad".

                      That hardly even requires comment, but in case anyone is a bit slow on the uptake, NO the surfaces do not indicate the rest of the machine. We've already discussed the issues with catalog samples etc very early n the process, so it is unlikely that there is any such relation.

                      And there is NO necessary relation, back in the 40s and 50s, those older machines, that WERE built correctly as to the working surfaces, still had scruffy outside surfaces, because the money was put to the important things

                      Perhaps you buy used machines on "bling", so a nice paint job adds hundreds of dollars to the price you will pay? You are reacting the same way to this

                      But that was not the point.... the point was that most are too spoiled by low prices and used equipment. We were discussing the "huge price". Folks cannot even relate to the difference between prices then and now, "then" being a time when dollars were actual monetary units of significance, and a similar lathe cost hundreds of them, while "used" machinery was not commonly available as it is now.

                      A new 10EE costs about $100,000..... and it is just a little bitty 10 x 24 or so machine.... Why do you not whine about that?

                      And, remind me again how much a little bitty Myford lathe cost new... when you could still get them new? Was it not (gasp choke) around $7500 in the US? I think so....... and folks complained they were not as good as they had been. For sure they were just a re-warmed ancient design....but ooh-ah, they were a "real Myford" so all was well..... Meh.....

                      Nope, until we know if the new SB "heavy 10" is made right inside, there is just no way to understand it's "worth". All the snivelling and whining is in vain.

                      It may be an expensive POS, or it may be well made, time will tell.
                      I agree that you can’t compare without knowing what is there but you compared it to an Atlas from the 1940s and made a decision based on that.

                      I was just commenting that it wasn’t really an apples to apples comparison even though the inflation numbers line up.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                        That seems silly.

                        You do not even know the quality level of the fitting etc of the SB, and you plan to compare it to one we already are pretty sure is just "so-so" at best? "Ah", you say... "we saw the scruffy surfaces on the outside, so we KNOW the rest of them inside are just as bad".

                        That hardly even requires comment, but in case anyone is a bit slow on the uptake, NO the surfaces do not indicate the rest of the machine. We've already discussed the issues with catalog samples etc very early n the process, so it is unlikely that there is any such relation.

                        And there is NO necessary relation, back in the 40s and 50s, those older machines, that WERE built correctly as to the working surfaces, still had scruffy outside surfaces, because the money was put to the important things

                        Perhaps you buy used machines on "bling", so a nice paint job adds hundreds of dollars to the price you will pay? You are reacting the same way to this

                        But that was not the point.... the point was that most are too spoiled by low prices and used equipment. We were discussing the "huge price". Folks cannot even relate to the difference between prices then and now, "then" being a time when dollars were actual monetary units of significance, and a similar lathe cost hundreds of them, while "used" machinery was not commonly available as it is now.

                        A new 10EE costs about $100,000..... and it is just a little bitty 10 x 24 or so machine.... Why do you not whine about that?

                        And, remind me again how much a little bitty Myford lathe cost new... when you could still get them new? Was it not (gasp choke) around $7500 in the US? I think so....... and folks complained they were not as good as they had been. For sure they were just a re-warmed ancient design....but ooh-ah, they were a "real Myford" so all was well..... Meh.....

                        Nope, until we know if the new SB "heavy 10" is made right inside, there is just no way to understand it's "worth". All the snivelling and whining is in vain.

                        It may be an expensive POS, or it may be well made, time will tell.
                        The 10ee, well mine at least is a 12.5" swing lathe.

                        Comment


                        • Well, you're right. You don't have to have a cell phone, just a house line and some quarters for the pay phones while out driving, right?
                          You don't need high speed internet for the house while you're searching for a job, or maybe even working from home right?
                          Now people could go buy a 5,000$ car instead of a new Honda for 600$ a month and have no payments...
                          Point is, some things today are needed that weren't a thing in the past. Easily add another 1200$ a month for child daycare which could erase any advantage of both having a job.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                            Well, you're right. You don't have to have a cell phone, just a house line and some quarters for the pay phones while out driving, right?
                            You don't need high speed internet for the house while you're searching for a job, or maybe even working from home right?
                            Now people could go buy a 5,000$ car instead of a new Honda for 600$ a month and have no payments...
                            Point is, some things today are needed that weren't a thing in the past. Easily add another 1200$ a month for child daycare which could erase any advantage of both having a job.
                            I don’t really want to turn this into this conversation but since it was brought up about now vs then.

                            Back then someone could earn a decent living without a college degree. You can still find some jobs without a degree but you are also competing against a lot that have one and most places want to see one.

                            Now take a look at what a 4 year college degree cost 40-50-60 years ago vs what one does today and run that through the inflation calculator. The cost of schooling today is way more expensive now than it was then.

                            I do agree though that a lot people are very foolish on how and what they spend money on now a days(maybe it’s always been like that).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                              Point is, some things today are needed that weren't a thing in the past.
                              Very, very few. (Though I don't understand the "a thing" part of the statement)

                              Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                              Well, you're right. You don't have to have a cell phone, just a house line and some quarters for the pay phones while out driving, right?
                              You don't need high speed internet for the house while you're searching for a job, or maybe even working from home right?
                              I missed whoever said 'you don't need a phone', but I will take a moment and discuss the assertion anyway.
                              Forgive me for being direct, but you have little idea what you are talking about. So you HAVE to be able to call while out driving? Bull$hit - and not that hard a problem to solve if truly necessary. Don't confuse needs with desires and conveniences, and do remember that the world somehow marched on when people had no availability to talk on phones while driving (or swerving around, as now seems so commonly paired with the practice).

                              But to elucidate and add a little historical context:
                              I currently pay for 2 separate cell phone numbers, free long distance (!), have data (!!), call waiting, voicemail, and a host of other features such as unlimited texts (sure don't need unlimited) and data (don't really need that either, but it can be convenient for GPS, etc.). The phones, which I own outright and have never failed - and as a big bonus, are computers with a host of apps that I didn't have to pay a dime for. All of this costs a little LESS than my single landline with zero features did just 20 years ago (I just checked - I have records in Quicken going back 20 years). It costs way, WAY less than when I had something a little bit closer to the equivalent - 2 lines, call waiting and caller ID (did have to buy an answering machine, and long distance was a killer).
                              Really, pretty much every expense I have, when longevity/reliability, ROI, etc. is factored in, is LESS than it was 20 years ago, plus I have many more choices, and my life more comfortable. Electricity, groceries, most things really. And this is completely ignoring inflation!

                              You DO need a phone and internet these days, at least if you ever need to find work (but then you always kind of really needed a phone for work). BUT, you do NOT need unlimited data, $800 phones, or all kinds of other crap. Internet ls likewise essentially a requirement. HOWEVER, high speed, and the ability to stream without annoying pauses, is in NO way a requirement - that is a luxury. And the inexpensive internet available on one's cell phone, should be enough to meet most requirements. So I guess technically, you don't typically even need internet beyond that. Many people do survive with neither. To have both, sufficient to fulfill these assertions, the cost is a pittance - maybe 2 hours work per month to pay for the actual need (the horror!)?
                              Perhaps it is worth noting that most of us here didn't have the internet or cell phones for much of our lives. We still efficiently conducted business, bridges still got built, rockets went to the moon, enormously complex technical projects like the atomic bomb, nevertheless, were successfully completed. Life went on, people seemed happier... ; )

                              With a little effort and a change in thinking, you can likely easily retire in your forties. Does that sound worthwhile? One's NEEDS are generally modest, but many people's desires, now so easily fulfilled (and often rather expansive), sometimes get the better of them.
                              Location: North Central Texas

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                              • the question "what kind of bearings" has remained unanswered (exept for some speculation as to where they might come from).

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