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Removing 5C adapter from Cam-Lock spindle

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  • Removing 5C adapter from Cam-Lock spindle

    My Summit 1440 uses a D1-6 camlock with a MT6 taper in the spindle. I am in the parts gathering phase of adding a lever 5c collet closer. I picked up a well used (beat up) Royal collet closer asm plus misc individual Royal closer parts recently at an auction. My question is the removal of the adapter sleeve (MT6 OD x 5c ID, an adapter sleeve not commonly available at an economical price).

    On my prior Clausing 5914 I used a spindle cover and I silver soldered a flange to the 4.5MT adapter sleeve (so that the flange overlapped the spindle cover) after which I bored out the adapter sleeve for the 5c mating surfaces. When I unscrewed the spindle nut holding the spindle cover in place, it would jack the adapter sleeve out of the spindle taper. Is there any slick way to remove the adapter sleeve short of tapping it on the backside with a hardwood dowel or an aluminum rod? Conceivably I could just leave the adapter in place when I mount a chuck but that defeats having the 2 inch spindle bore.

    I'm planning on buying a MT6 x MT4 reducer sleeve and then once again machining the ID for 5c. I could also once again add a flange to the reducer sleeve but short of using an oversized "pickle fork" or a bearing separator behind the flange (both of which would be much more effort than just tapping the adapter sleeve out) I see no slick way of removing the adapter sleeve. I am thinking that there is no advantage to having a flange on the adapter. I did a search for images of lathes with cam-lock chuck mounting and 5c collets and the few images I found showed a flange on the adapter.

    Your thoughts please.
    Metro Detroit

  • #2
    Is there any of the MT6 sleeve sticking out of the lathe spindle? If there is I would single point a fine thread on it, something like a 18 or 20 pitch and machine a matching spanner nut to fit. Back the nut off for installation, tighten and give it a tap to remove the sleeve?
    I just need one more tool,just one!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
      Is there any of the MT6 sleeve sticking out of the lathe spindle? If there is I would single point a fine thread on it, something like a 18 or 20 pitch and machine a matching spanner nut to fit. Back the nut off for installation, tighten and give it a tap to remove the sleeve?
      I think I was not clear - I intend to buy a 6 x 4 MT sleeve. Currently there is nothing (other than some swarf) in the spindle taper. I'm planning on how to remove the sleeve, in use, in the future.

      On edit, I think maybe you suggested using a jack screw/nut to pull the sleeve out of the arbor in the future? No idea if the 6 MT would extend out of the spindle and if so by how much.
      Metro Detroit

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      • #4
        Thoughts?

        1) good plan, holding in the spindle taper is better than a chuck

        2) starting with an adapter....once upon a time I thought to do something similar, couldn't find an adapter that wasn't fully hardened. imo it would be a lot easier to start with a preheated piece of chrome moly

        3) Given its a bigger lathe, consider ditching the 5C's in favour of 2J's being able to take up to 1 3/8" is really convenient and it should fit in a MT6. It fairly easy to find Hardinge sets on flea bay, probably the next most common collet to 5c's

        4) knock out. The adapter doesn't have to be seated with much force. I put a bit of brass on the end of a 1/2 still bar, would find the edge of the adapter, and gently give a few taps.

        That lathe is long since sold (SM with a 4 1/2 MT and factory ground adapter) and I have collect chucks on the biggers lathes current, and direct to spindle in smaller lathes. I do miss how accurate that collet mounting was, it was a tenth or two TIR if I remember
        Last edited by Mcgyver; 12-27-2020, 01:18 PM.
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by aribert View Post

          I think I was not clear - I intend to buy a 6 x 4 MT sleeve. Currently there is nothing (other than some swarf) in the spindle taper. I'm planning on how to remove the sleeve, in use, in the future.
          I know you intend to buy and use a sleeve to make your own adapter. What I meant was, sometimes when you stick a reducing sleeve in a lathe spindle, some portion of the sleeve sticks out of spindle. If it does, thread the OD of that which is sticking out, make a matching spanner nut to fit and use the nut to jack the sleeve out of the spindle when you want to remove the sleeve.

          I just need one more tool,just one!

          Comment


          • #6
            Make a puller to yank it out. A through-bolt with a washer on the back large enough to poke through the spindle but not through the adapter. Turn an ally collar to protect the spindle then just put the puller through, the collar over it and then a flat bar and nut. Tightening the nut will pull the taper out.
            Peter - novice home machinist, modern motorcycle enthusiast.

            Denford Viceroy 280 Synchro (11 x 24)
            Herbert 0V adapted to R8 by 'Sir John'.
            Monarch 10EE 1942

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            • #7
              Mine have all just knocked out from the back. Easy.

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              • #8
                I use a knock out bar from the rear just like lakesie53. I think that is what most people do.

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                • #9
                  I don't want to rain on your parade, but have you checked your carriage clearance? Many modern lathes where the ways stop at the headstock really struggle to get up to the spindle nose. See here on dad's Lagun 1440:

                  Click image for larger version

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                  The carriage is all the way left, but the tool is still some distance away from the spindle nose. Dad was trying to metric thread with a collet in the spindle nose one day and ended up crashing into the headstock his clearance was so low, which caused some damage. And even still, he had the part some 3+ inches out, totally destroying the rigidity. We have found that collets in the spindle nose is worthless, which is strange considering the lathe came with a collet closer. For the price of a 5c collet chuck on ebay, it's a no brainer for me.
                  21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
                  1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

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                  • #10
                    Another one here that uses a knockout bar. I keep threatening myself to build a puller so I won't risk brinelling the spindle bearings, but unfortunately I've been too lazy to build one. On the heavy ten the adapter has a flange so I could use a pickle fork but It's always been just as convenient to use a knockout bar through the spindle.

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                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=The Metal Butcher;n1918415]I don't want to rain on your parade, but have you checked your carriage clearance? Many modern lathes where the ways stop at the headstock really struggle to get up to the spindle nose. See here on dad's Lagun 1440:

                      TBM:
                      You might have harshed my mellow a bit - but better now in the planning stages than after I have the closer asm and installed. I'll check tomorrow morning. I know the summit does not have a relief in the headstock for the carriage to scoot under like my prior Clausing 5914 had. While researching collet closer with a cam-lock spindle, I cam across this page where someone made a cam-lock "chuck" (i'd call it a 5c adapter/nose piece, he used a drawbar to retain the collet). https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...k-5c-chuck-167 If I am lacking travel, I might do something similar but use a lever collet closer, machining the 5c cam-lock nose pc in place on the machine and marking the clocking of the nose piece should keep the tolerance stack-up fairly low. I might have another issue in getting the segmented drive plate that attaches to the far end of the spindle under the cover of the lathe - the cover swings to the back of the lathe and there is no way the segmented drive plate mounted outside of the cover will allow the cover to be opened without removing the drive plate. As is, its a flanged hole that I may need to open up to get the lever collet closer to pass thru. Not a good image of the cover to far end of spindle, but the only one I had readily available.Click image for larger version

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                      Last edited by aribert; 12-27-2020, 11:48 PM. Reason: added image and more content
                      Metro Detroit

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                      • #12
                        Indeed, better to rain now than later.

                        I'm not 100% familiar with closer terminology, but I think I know what you're referring to. For dad's lathe, the cover is recessed and the "spider" thing just fits outside the cover. The pivot arm required a hole to be blasted in the cover by the P/O. For yours, you'll probably have to enlarge the spindle hole and blast a new hole. Then remove everything if you need to open the cover.

                        I don't have any good photos readily either, but I was able to crop a few to give you an idea:

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Click image for larger version

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                        Personally, I hate the whole setup. Here's why:
                        1. Our shop is too tight to leave it on. It would get busted and someone would get impaled.
                        2. Removing the closer but leaving the spider on restricts the spindle bore down to 1 3/4 or so. I do well more big stuff than collet work, so it would get in my way.
                        3. Can't leave the yoke thingie on or it drags on the spindle. 3 more screws.
                        4. The aforementioned reach issues on the carriage.
                        5. Generally just slow as hell if you're not leaving it on. That may not be a problem for you, if you do a lot of collet work.
                        For me, assuming that the reach wasn't an issue and I had a good 5c collet chuck, I think somewhere around 80-100 pieces would be the magic number were I would consider installing the closer on over the chuck, assuming I then had to remove it again. YMMV
                        21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
                        1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

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                        • #13
                          When I first found my current lathe; a very nice Chinese 13 x 40; it came with a 5C collet closer
                          setup. The seller offered to remove it if I didn't want it and reduce the price by $900. I made a
                          snap decision and told the seller to take it off--budget was pretty tight and I couldn't really afford
                          the extra anyway.

                          I've never regretted the decision. There have been virtually no situations where I really felt like I
                          could have used it. A few years ago I bought myself a very nice little ER40 collet chuck from
                          Arceurotrade and it has proven to be all I need in the way of a small diameter precision chuck.
                          Carefully mounted on a D1-6 back plate it has almost zero runout. Changing parts is not quite as
                          fast as a closer would be but for 8-12 parts or less (which seems to be about the quantity I end up
                          using it for) it's just not an issue...
                          Keith
                          __________________________
                          Just one project too many--that's what finally got him...

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                          • #14
                            I use both ER and Royal rear closer type. Hard to beat the Royal for any quantity. I feed the rod from the back machine, cutoff, ejects, machine cutoff etc. I made a mutli-tool holder to perform all my operation in one basic movement of the carriage and cross slide. But for 1 or 2, anything works.

                            I'd like handwheel closer type also.. hmmm....

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lakeside53 View Post
                              I use both ER and Royal rear closer type. Hard to beat the Royal for any quantity. I feed the rod from the back machine, cutoff, ejects, machine cutoff etc. I made a mutli-tool holder to perform all my operation in one basic movement of the carriage and cross slide. But for 1 or 2, anything works.

                              I'd like handwheel closer type also.. hmmm....
                              I have the Royal on one machine. Given to me, kant afford that stuff.

                              Funny part my Monarch 10EE only has the Handwheel type.. Hahaaaa. JR
                              My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                              https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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