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Wet Stone vs. Oil Stone

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  • #16
    No they are not all vitrified. There are many different types of bond used in synthetic hones these days. Including resin bond. Many of the finer Japanese water stones use a resin bond, and oil will disintegrate some of them. Don't ask me how I know that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Doozer View Post
      There is no bonding agent. That is what vitrified means. The bond comes from the minerals themselves, partially melting and sticking together when heated.

      -D
      Don't think so. If that's how they were done I guess would be called a vitrified bond, but the vitrified bonds used in abrasives are achieved by adding other minerals like clay that form the bonds between the abrasives - its still called a vitrified bond but its not the abrasive particles themselves fusing to each other. I speculate that it has to do with temps, perhaps analogues to brazing. you want a bond that happens a temp low enough not deform the parent material, as the abrasive could lose their sharp edges.

      http://weltgroups.com/grinding-wheel-composition/
      in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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      • #18
        Nice. Good information. Thanks.



        Vitrified Method (Vitrified Bond)
        Vitrified bond is represented by symbol “V".
        In this method, ceramics such as feldspar and clay is fired to bond abrasive grains together.
        Vitrified bonded products are widely used in general grinding field including precision grinding, because the bond allows easy adjustment of grade and structure, and vitrified bonded products have numerous pores which prevent burn, and they won’t be affected by either water, alkali, acid or oil.
        We have every kind of grains including QB ceramic grain available.
        We provide products suitable for your workpiece.



        DZER

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        • #19
          I currently have this book, on loan from the Phoenix Library. With the libraries closed due to Covid, I can keep it for five months.

          https://www.amazon.com/Sharpening-Wo...s%2C195&sr=8-1

          It tells you what woodworkers need to know about sharpening, with chapters on chisels, hand planes, card scrapers, garden tools, kitchen tools, router bits, drill bits, and planer/thicknesser blades. It describes (a) oil stones, (b) waterstones, and (c) diamond stones.

          A nice book, if you can afford it.

          Allan Ostling

          Phoenix, Arizona

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ed ke6bnl View Post

            sorry to ask this BUT do you use the diamond stones wet or dry if wet what is used? Home I am not confusing the issue
            If you watch videos on using diamond plates they almost always use water. Often water with just a drop or two of detergent to aid with it spreading out more easily. Using the water floats the particles away so the diamonds don't clog up. Same reason why wetordry sandpaper is best used wet on items which would otherwise clog up the paper quickly.

            I suppose that diamond plates could also be used with a bit of solvent or light grade oil to do the same thing. But cleaning at the end could get messy.



            Back to generalities ....

            I can see using "oil" stones with oil, water or perhaps the water mixed coolants found in our machine shops.

            But I think you'd find that trying to use water stones with oil or solvent would become VERY messy. And I'm not at all sure that oil or solvent without water would allow the bonds to break down in the correct manner. And given their porosity if one were to try such a stone with oil or mixed soluble oil good luck cleaning it to allow a return to using it with only water. It could be done with enough solvent or perhaps degreasing detergent. But I would expect it to be a nasty labor intensive job.

            I prefer water stones for wood shop sharpening and oil stones in the machine shop. I've never regretted for a moment switching to water stones for the wood tools sharpening. When I did the oil stones switched from being general purpose to machine shop only.

            I did have to be careful to avoid rusting. And despite that I did get the occasional stain. A couple of years ago I adopted the traditional Japanese idea of a dobber with a small amount of USP grade mineral oil that wipes a very light film onto the metal to stop it rusting. Got the idea off one of Paul Seller's wood working videos.
            Chilliwack BC, Canada

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            • #21
              I bought this cheap diamond lap from ebay UK 224240703795, it is double sided, 400 / 1000 grit with a good base, nice and flat to use with water, mainly for sharpening carbide. I don't know how long it will last using it with such hard materials, but the price was very reasonable.

              BCR, have you thought about using well diluted soluble oil used as coolant in lathes and mills to reduce rusting? Say 10% of machine strength.
              Last edited by old mart; 01-11-2021, 02:18 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ed ke6bnl View Post

                sorry to ask this BUT do you use the diamond stones wet or dry if wet what is used? Home I am not confusing the issue
                I use mine wet. You can use them dry, but eventually the swarf starts clogging the abrasive necessitating giving it a good scrub. Far as what to use, i just use water, no need to get fancy

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Doozer View Post
                  There is no bonding agent. That is what vitrified means. The bond comes from the minerals themselves, partially melting and sticking together when heated.

                  -D
                  never mind, covered already.....
                  3751 6193 2700 3517

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan

                  If you look closely at a digital signal, you find out it is really analog......

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by old mart View Post
                    .......BCR, have you thought about using well diluted soluble oil used as coolant in lathes and mills to reduce rusting? Say 10% of machine strength.
                    I think it would be a great idea for steel based diamond stones. I've got a couple of the cheap thin diamond plate style ones and they tend to rust if not coated after use. And I wonder about the fancier ones staining a little as well. For some of the sharpening setups I've seen where folks only use diamond lapping stones and spritz on a bit of fluid I think this idea would ideal. They don't flush freely with water as is done with water stones.

                    I'd have to think about it for use with the water stones in the wood shop. First off the man made stones are designed to work with water only. It would be a bit of a gamble to see if the oil in the mix might be OK or if it would cause an issue with the stone makeup. I'd hate to dump my roughly $200 worth of stones in there without a test first. Plus I'd have to set up a tank of "soup" to hold the stones instead of simply setting them up on the back shelf behind the sink which is the water source and drain. And to keep the advantage I'd have to use the mix to flush the stones instead of simply using tap water.

                    Oh, and there's the Tormek wet grinder as well. And I would not want to see any oil get into that reservoir. And when roughing a new tool there's a fair amount of back and forth from stones to Tormek. And that's a deal killer right there. There is simply no practical way to stop the Tormek stone from drying out and concentrating the oil content. And it's too expensive a stone to test to see if there is any unwanted effect.

                    Really though the oil dobber has proven to be super easy and quick to use. I know it seems like an unneeded extra step but in truth it takes about 3 seconds tops to pass it over a newly sharpened tool.
                    Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                    • #25
                      I do a lot of honing of blades. I use ceramic japanese hones (shapton). From 1200 to 12000 grit. I always use water, never oil. I have some soft arkansas stones, always water. JR
                      My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                      • #26
                        Wet stone, whet stone? Dont get too Carried with the nomenclature.

                        Yes, I dont use oil anymore, used to. Whata mess, cleaning hones. All water based now.

                        I use some very fine grits for specific needs. Dont buy a 12000 grit stone hahaa.

                        Unless you need it (razor blades).

                        The best thing I could say is flatten your stones out. JR

                        The truing stone has helped out a lot for my most used and abused stones. Only for the soft rocks, not the ceramics, tey stay flat. JR

                        Yeah, I market them with a sharpie so I know what grit is what even though this is the back side.

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                        My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                        https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Doozer View Post
                          There is no bonding agent. That is what vitrified means. The bond comes from the minerals themselves, partially melting and sticking together when heated.

                          -D
                          think about it: if you were to melt the grains together, they would not be sharp grains any longer but some mineral blobs fused together.

                          btw, the only problem with diamond plates is that they do not come in 20'000 grit. or do they?

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                          • #28
                            Now my other pics were using the whet stones dry to show how the flatten-er works. Here is why I use water, clean up... Cant do that with oil stones. JR

                            Now wet...

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                            Easy cleanup and removal of swarf.


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                            My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                            https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                            • #29
                              I have stored my Japanese water stones in a Tupperware 9X12 container for more than 20 years. They are stored in distilled water and a drip of bleach so that they are ready to use with out waiting for the stone to soak up the water before use. My black surgical Arkansas stone gets a coating of mineral oil when used to sharpen my exactor blades. My dad's double edge razor blades used a beveled. black surgical stone. My shaving razor just gets strapped on my leather strop with some red jeweler rouge.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dian View Post

                                think about it: if you were to melt the grains together, they would not be sharp grains any longer but some mineral blobs fused together.

                                btw, the only problem with diamond plates is that they do not come in 20'000 grit. or do they?
                                https://www.amazon.com/Micron-Grit-D.../dp/B07JGDRH9Q

                                Just one example. A 1 micron paste is about equivalent to a 14000 grit, for sharpening id be inclined to call that close enough. Can find .5 micron stuff if required though. Some of the paste or spray on an appropriate lapping surface makes for a good sharpening stone

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