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  • You guys running diesel vehicles

    Don't know if i'm mistaken about this , I'm new to the diesel world - . early days

    Noticed the diesel froths a lot when filling - i was brimming the tank to check mpg .

    So i put it in very slowly - and noticed I put in a lot less than i usually did, strange very strange ( same pump , same side, same mileage, same runs , same driving style)

    Could the stuff be cavitating in the forecourt diesel pump ...so counting froth instead of pure fuel when put in fast.

    Nuts i know --- Just a thought ..how about you guys fill up very slowly and make some observations. that's very slowly so you see the fuel coming out of the nozzle without any froth in it. (laminar flow, i think its called)

    all the best..mark


  • #2
    Ughggm me thinks you may forgot about the time you had to "try" and outrun an old V-tec del sol from that one stop light and uhhh ugghm burnt up that extra 2 or 3 gallons in the process of losing the drag race? tons of them challenging - so much so it makes me wonder about things like life left on my clutch disc --- was that you???

    cannot remember all the times iv had to "throw down diesel repellent" on them lol

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by aboard_epsilon View Post
      Don't know if i'm mistaken about this , I'm new to the diesel world - . early days

      Noticed the diesel froths a lot when filling - i was brimming the tank to check mpg .

      So i put it in very slowly - and noticed I put in a lot less than i usually did, strange very strange ( same pump , same side, same mileage, same runs , same driving style)

      Could the stuff be cavitating in the forecourt diesel pump ...so counting froth instead of pure fuel when put in fast.

      Nuts i know --- Just a thought ..how about you guys fill up very slowly and make some observations. that's very slowly so you see the fuel coming out of the nozzle without any froth in it. (laminar flow, i think its called)

      all the best..mark
      I'm almost positive that the discrepancy you are observing is due to filling procedure and not the dispensing pump.
      The dispensing pumps will have an air eliminator installed in order precluded any possibility of air entering from either a suction leak upstream or pockets of air from entering the system if the storage tank runs dry and also to comply with government weights and measures laws. These metering chambers will be tagged and sealed upon meeting tight levels of adherence to spec.These are also inspected on a regular basis to certify that they have not fallen out of calibration or have been tampered with.

      Rather than trying to brim the tank you will obtain more consistent and repeatable results by simply letting the pump shut off automatically, waiting 30seconds and then letting the pump kick out again once more and calling it good.
      Trying to brim the tank results in the opportunity to skew the results by introducing all sorts of variables in where the extra fuel goes, sometimes. Roll over protection plumbing and valves, surge and vapor circuits etc.
      Just use a consistent procedure, don't try to brim it as you'll never win that battle.
      Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
      Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

      Location: British Columbia

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Willy View Post
        ....

        Rather than trying to brim the tank you will obtain more consistent and repeatable results by simply letting the pump shut off automatically, waiting 30seconds and then letting the pump kick out again once more and calling it good.
        Trying to brim the tank results in the opportunity to skew the results by introducing all sorts of variables in where the extra fuel goes, sometimes. Roll over protection plumbing and valves, surge and vapor circuits etc.
        Just use a consistent procedure, don't try to brim it as you'll never win that battle.
        Not so sure there..... Diesels might be different, but I doubt it. The Ranger, like the S10 before it, will consistently take considerably more fuel after shutoff.

        The S10 would reliably take 3 gallons +- after first shutoff, although it had been known to take 18 gallons after first shutoff, shutting off every quarter gallon or so the whole way.... The most usual was to take 3 gallons. I am pretty certain that I was not filling all sorts of things that ought not to be filled, since when I knew I was about out of gas, it would take 17 to 18 gallons on a nominal capacity of 18.5 gallons. (besides, it would be stupid design if that were a problem)

        The Ranger takes 2.5 gallons generally, after first shutoff. Again, I can be pretty sure that is legit, since again, if the gauge is about at zero, and the computer suggests 30 miles remaining, which would be a bit over a gallon, the total fill on a 19 gallon tank is about 18 gallons..

        I fill and when the first shutoff occurs, I wait a count of 5 and start again. Usually 1/3 of a gallon goes in, and that continues with more shutoffs until it shuts off quickly.

        I did that "fill to the quick shutoff point" method for 20 years of driving the S10, and it worked fine the whole time. The Ranger seems to be the same way. Both simply have an oddity in the fill pipe, and the gas just backs up in the pipe, shutting off the pump.

        It depends on the number of vehicles at the station. If the place is full, it does the standard 2+ gallons. If only one or two cars are at a 12 or 16 car station, the pump is too fast, and I can count on it shutting off way early.

        If I did what you suggest, I would be wasting 14% or so of the tank capacity.... and having to stop that much more often on a long trip.
        2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan


        It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

          ............................
          .....................

          If I did what you suggest, I would be wasting 14% or so of the tank capacity.... and having to stop that much more often on a long trip.
          Very true, however it's not all about you.

          If you will re-read Mark's post again you will see that his question centered on getting a reliable and consistent fill so that he could determine his fuel consumption accurately.
          He was not concerned about squeezing the last mile or km out of his tank.Totally different matter. He can do that later when he gets his mpg figures.

          Filling the tank to a consistent level in order to obtain reliable and repeatable results so as to get an accurate fuel consumption figure is paramount to addressing his question. It matters little if the tank is brimmed,down a liter, or twenty, as long as it is done consistently. This was the problem he was having so my answer was based on that, not range.

          Every vehicle has their own idiosyncrasies and some fuel fill designs are questionable to say the least, while others are exceptional in their execution. If have witnessed many that were bad to begin with when designed to be used with gasoline. These were than passed on to be used as is when the vehicle was later offered as a diesel fuel powered variant. That's when bad came to worse since the diesel fuel's propensity to foam only enhanced an already bad situation.

          Not sure what Mark's situation is and it matters not, getting a repeatable result is his only goal at this juncture.

          Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
          Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

          Location: British Columbia

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Willy View Post

            If you will re-read Mark's post again you will see that his question centered on getting a reliable and consistent fill so that he could determine his fuel consumption accurately.
            He was not concerned about squeezing the last mile or km out of his tank.Totally different matter. He can do that later when he gets his mpg figures.

            Filling the tank to a consistent level in order to obtain reliable and repeatable results so as to get an accurate fuel consumption figure is paramount to addressing his question. It matters little if the tank is brimmed,down a liter, or twenty, as long as it is done consistently. This was the problem he was having so my answer was based on that, not range.

            .........
            BEANS

            If it is any help for you, I also fill completely in order to get a good mileage reading. I know that the fill point is consistent. The long trip thing is really just a secondary reason, but it is a good one.

            How do you get a consistent fill when there is no reference? The only references available are:

            1) the gas gauge (ROFL.... those give you basically NO calibration)

            2) Filling to "refusal", basically brimming the tank.

            If you have some magic way of knowing where some random pump stops filling and shuts off, well you can make more money than Uri Geller on TV, you are clairvoyant.

            That was the entire point.... the fact that you CANNOT KNOW within even a gallon either way, what level the tank is filled to unless you actually measure it, and there is no reliable way of measuring a "part fill" on the typical non-commercial truck. The shutoff point on the pump is a completely random point that likely has a dozen variables controlling it.

            You would need a dipstick to do it, or a sight glass.
            2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

            Keep eye on ball.
            Hashim Khan


            It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

            Comment


            • #7
              It has always worked for those doing mileage figure testing as well as myself since the procedure is a consistent and repeatable one. Like it or not this is the accepted practice and for good reason, repeatability. The only scientific alternative would be a discreet calibrated vessel, this is very seldom done as this level of refinement is not usually required due to so many other variables having a greater impact on the final results.
              Perhaps explain to Mark why he is not obtaining a repeatable and consistent fill by brimming it.
              Not everyone drives an S10 or a Ranger, your experience is limited.
              Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
              Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

              Location: British Columbia

              Comment


              • #8
                As for how? Just doggedly filling through the shutoffs until it will not put more in, and shuts off 2 or three times instantly when the handle is pulled.

                Originally posted by Willy View Post
                I.......
                Perhaps explain to Mark why he is not obtaining a repeatable and consistent fill by brimming it.
                Not everyone drives an S10 or a Ranger, your experience is limited.
                I would suspect that actually "brimming it" is the ONLY way to get a consistent level. Which is exactly what I said above. No idea why you would suggest I explain why that is not so, since I insist that it IS so.

                Perhaps YOU should explain how it is not.

                The S10 and Ranger are typical, since I have found MANY people with different trucks who have the same experience. And it happens on other vehicles, which I have observed personally. You will always be able to say "but your experience is limited" if there is anything I have not driven, so that is meaningless and may be discounted.

                I DO NOT CARE what you claim.... "first shutoff" is an unreliable indicator. The ONLY way to get a consistent level with a shutoff type pump is to full until the pump will not put any more in. In other words, to truly "brim" the tank. You will NOT be able to tell if it is down a liter, or 5 liters.

                You need to show how to tell if the level is consistent with no reference but the fuel pump shutoff. I say it cannot be done reliably, even at the same pump, let alone at different pumps along the road. Too many variables.
                Last edited by J Tiers; 01-31-2021, 12:11 PM.
                2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                Keep eye on ball.
                Hashim Khan


                It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I keep a notebook in all my vehicles and write down the date, mileage, gallons and cost for each fill up. Calculating mileage over 1k or more miles eliminates this problem.

                  Steve

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SteveF View Post
                    I keep a notebook in all my vehicles and write down the date, mileage, gallons and cost for each fill up. Calculating mileage over 1k or more miles eliminates this problem.

                    Steve
                    Yes this ^^^^^^^. You only need the exact level if you are doing a one-tank test. Then you need to refill to the same level as at the start.

                    I do it because I often DO want the mpg for the last tank, but for average mpg, a notebook is far more effective.
                    2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan


                    It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Fuel is a consistent product, it's percolation properties are very consistent also when traversing the fill pipe. Each particular variation of fill pipe will of course have it's own individual characteristics however their affects on the percolation of the fuel will be repeatable on a consistent basis while using a fuel of the same type, IE: gasoline or diesel in that particular vehicle.

                      Automatic shut-off fuel dispensing nozzles also operate on a consistent and repeatable basis as long as they are inserted into the fill pipe with proper orientation and flow rate.
                      There is no magic or clairvoyance need, these are all basic repeatable operations that don't require one to fill every nook and cranny of the fuel system in order to obtain repeatable results. This is the procedure used by anyone outside of a lab in order to garner mpg figures since it does produce viable results without trying to trickle in every last drop and risking filling the vapor recovery system with liquid fuel which it clearly is not designed to handle.

                      Just to be clear though I am not saying this is the-end all and be-all of obtaining a viable result on every vehicle on the planet, just that it is the easiest and most widespread and accepted procedure.
                      Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                      Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

                      Location: British Columbia

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        They probably have lower cetane diesel, my current theory, but I’ve seen the same
                        mark

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Willy View Post
                          Fuel is a consistent product, it's percolation properties are very consistent also when traversing the fill pipe. Each particular variation of fill pipe will of course have it's own individual characteristics however their affects on the percolation of the fuel will be repeatable on a consistent basis while using a fuel of the same type, IE: gasoline or diesel in that particular vehicle.

                          Automatic shut-off fuel dispensing nozzles also operate on a consistent and repeatable basis as long as they are inserted into the fill pipe with proper orientation and flow rate.
                          There is no magic or clairvoyance need, these are all basic repeatable operations that don't require one to fill every nook and cranny of the fuel system in order to obtain repeatable results. This is the procedure used by anyone outside of a lab in order to garner mpg figures since it does produce viable results without trying to trickle in every last drop and risking filling the vapor recovery system with liquid fuel which it clearly is not designed to handle.

                          ...........
                          Short story on the above: It is great in theory.

                          In actual practice, by my own experience (4 vehicles), and that of others I have spoken to about it, the supposed consistency actually varies widely, over at least a 10 gallon range in some vehicles.

                          In other words, the theory is essentially worthless in the practical world. It just does not happen like that consistently.*

                          If you want to have consistent fuel level, fill the damn thing up ... "brim it".

                          * Variables include temperature, fill rate (affected by how many vehicles are being filled at once time at a station), probably inclination of the fill location (they are usually pretty flat, but do vary, and it seemed to make a difference), the amount of fuel initially in the tank, and other things that I have not observed with any accuracy. Certain stations would shut off after a gallon virtually every time with some vehicles, and some will fill even the ranger to a genuine "brimmed" condition in one shot.
                          Last edited by J Tiers; 01-31-2021, 02:07 PM.
                          2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan


                          It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Umm yes brimming - but whilst doing so i noticed putting it in slowly, "possibly" made the pump counter count less ...that's what the discussion is about ..
                            The actual fuel coming out of the nozzle frothing or with laminar flow ---- not the fuel frothing up the fuel tank filler ..and if it made a difference on the pump counter.

                            Boomer has dismissed it - but maybe not all pumps are created equal ...

                            My calculations showed that i had done 50mpg that's with 3 longish 20 mile trips ..about 15 short trips of less than 2 miles ...and two sessions of 10 mins idling waiting for windscreen to defrost.

                            i could have made a mistake ..we will have to see with future fill ups

                            50 mpg is supposed to be the maximum this vehicle is capable of ...that would be a long trip taken slowly without stops.

                            Ford Transit Connect (2002 - 2014) - Real MPG | Honest John

                            all the best.mark

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wow nice rig! thought you were talking typical work trucks,,, those are some of the best numbers iv seen, where You at? are those US gallons?

                              You do the same thing that I do when checking mileage --- same pump same place and just one click-off of the auto shut off --- only thing I can suggest esp. with the thicker fuel (diesel) is asking if the temps were the same as that could definitely effect things like froth and flow rate and cause a discrepancy in the pumps auto stop...

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