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  • #31
    Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post
    And isn't engineering just a collection of acceptable compromises?
    Sure. But math isn't.

    -js
    There are no stupid questions. But there are lots of stupid answers. This is the internet.

    Location: SF Bay Area

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Jim Stewart View Post

      Sure. But math isn't.

      -js
      Bet me..

      You dont think there is some Theology within Math?
      Dont get me wrong, I see Math as being perfect. JR

      Edit: Sorry, needed the Q.

      Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post
      And isn't engineering just a collection of acceptable compromises?
      Last edited by JRouche; 02-19-2021, 01:40 AM.
      My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JRouche View Post
        You dont think there is some Theology within Math?
        One of the most intriguing questions mathematicians (and many physicists) proffer goes something like this...

        Is mathematics some sort of fundamental property of nature that we have been gradually discovering or is it the most incredible mental construct mankind has ever assembled?

        Think about it. Newton managed to bundle all of the phenomenon of gravity into a single, simple equation. Was this a discovery on his part or an incredible mental construct on his part? If the exponent on the 1/R^2 term is changed by even a slight amount from two, stable orbits are impossible. Did we just luck out with our creation of algebra so that the square of a number was the perfect fit for the description of gravity or are inverse square forces a natural feature that we happened to discover?

        I don't waste any time thinking about philosophical crap like this; it gets in the way of doing something useful.

        However, if you think you can inject theology into math, you should start by answering this question.

        Regards, Marv

        Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
        http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

        Location: LA, CA, USA

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mklotz View Post

          One of the most intriguing questions mathematicians (and many physicists) proffer goes something like this...

          Is mathematics some sort of fundamental property of nature that we have been gradually discovering or is it the most incredible mental construct mankind has ever assembled?

          However, if you think you can inject theology into math, you should start by answering this question.
          Definitely a construct. Just like the spoken language. The physics are already there. How we interpret them is our construct. The definition of an apple can easily be reinterpreted to be called a banana. One plus one can easily be called A plus A

          a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on. That doesnt change the fact that A+A=B. We gave the number One its value. It doesnt occur in nature as a One. JR

          My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

          https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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          • #35
            Originally posted by mklotz View Post

            One of the most intriguing questions mathematicians (and many physicists) proffer goes something like this...

            Is mathematics some sort of fundamental property of nature that we have been gradually discovering or is it the most incredible mental construct mankind has ever assembled?

            Think about it. Newton managed to bundle all of the phenomenon of gravity into a single, simple equation. Was this a discovery on his part or an incredible mental construct on his part? If the exponent on the 1/R^2 term is changed by even a slight amount from two, stable orbits are impossible. Did we just luck out with our creation of algebra so that the square of a number was the perfect fit for the description of gravity or are inverse square forces a natural feature that we happened to discover?

            I don't waste any time thinking about philosophical crap like this; it gets in the way of doing something useful.

            However, if you think you can inject theology into math, you should start by answering this question.
            Whilst newton did, it was already described in words by Robert Hooke ( spring guy), Newton hated Hooke,and was as far as I’ve read the originator of a phenomenon we suffer from today, cancel culture, burning his painting, removing references of him from wherever he could, no doubt Newton was smart, but according to the historian at the royal institution, he was also a jealous petty insecure man
            mark

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            • #36
              Something anomalous seems to be going on at the very large and the very small scales. Within that range, the laws of physics seem to work well enough. So well in fact that mathematics beautifully describes things, and is seen to be essentially perfect. 1 plus 1 plus 1 = 3, no way around it. For how many orders of magnitude does this apply, and at what point would we have to revise our understanding of it all? And for what reasons?
              I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

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              • #37
                I'm sure by now somebody mentioned it, but Joe Pi just did a video on calculating bolt circles that ya'all might find useful or at least entertaining.
                *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

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                • #38
                  One issue that I don't remember concerning myself about, until the last year or so, is the constant pi and it's relation to a circle.
                  We know that pi x diameter = the circumference of a circle. But pi is an irrational number with a value having decimals that go on forever. So the exact product of pi X dia that you get will depend on the number of decimal digits you use. In other words, not a precise value.
                  Is that to say the circumference of circles is kind of a nebulous thing? Just an approximation.

                  What am I overlooking here?
                  Lynn (Huntsville, AL)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lynnl View Post
                    One issue that I don't remember concerning myself about, until the last year or so, is the constant pi and it's relation to a circle.
                    We know that pi x diameter = the circumference of a circle. But pi is an irrational number with a value having decimals that go on forever. So the exact product of pi X dia that you get will depend on the number of decimal digits you use. In other words, not a precise value.
                    Is that to say the circumference of circles is kind of a nebulous thing? Just an approximation.

                    What am I overlooking here?
                    All measurements in the real world are approximations. The length of the circumference in the world of math is a concept, not a measurement.

                    Irrational numbers occur frequently in math. The ratio of the diagonal of a square to its side is irrational. The golden mean is irrational, as is the base of natural logarithms.

                    But the fact that these numbers are irrational doesn't mean they can't be calculated. If you can measure your diameter to 1000 digits of precision, we can supply you with a value of pi accurate to 10,000 digits so that you can accurately calculate circumference to 1000 digits.

                    Many of these irrational numbers are defined by infinite series and the use of these series (or calculation series based on them) allow the precision to be carried to whatever level is desired.

                    Here's another one to try to wrap your mind around...

                    In the world of arithmetic we learn about associativity (numbers can be added in any order) and commutativity (numbers can be multiplied in any order). Yet, once we get to matrix algebra, commutativity goes out the window. If A and B are matrices, it's not necessarily true that A*B = B*A.

                    Especially in physics, math is used to predict things about the world. Many elementary particles have been discovered by predicting their properties (their existence, in fact) with mathematical theories and then building equipment to find them based on those properties. This is another fascinating feature of math; we can use it to predict things about the real world and many of those predictions pan out. That's freaking amazing.

                    So, what does the failure of commutativity in matrix algebra predict about the real world? Tensors, the mathematical structures used to define aspects of the real world, are matrices so the question is not merely theoretical.



                    Regards, Marv

                    Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
                    http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

                    Location: LA, CA, USA

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mklotz View Post
                      The length of the circumference in the world of math is a concept, not a measurement.
                      Well, kinda like being a Construct.

                      You are a Mathematician. I like that even though I have no math education.

                      I accidentally said I dont like Teachers her before. Its not the teachers, it was my issue with getting booted out of HS the first year because I was in a different space back then. And I have always been horrible at math.

                      I love Math. It is the defining method where Theorists can solidify their Theory on paper. Otherwise they are just drawing cartoons and hope the Science Community takes them seriously.

                      What I like about the math that I know nuthing about? The Continuity of it. It translates very well within its own "laws" and therefore you can prove one experiment with another. Meaning good math is self proving. Its concrete VS all them other sciences. I still like chem though.

                      Oh, on a side note while at work board one day I did some long hand multiplications on paper. Like

                      143843x4973429=

                      Yes, I wrote the entire long hand thing out in pensile. It was a long string. The visual didnt look good. So I did a faster and much shorter way on paper and was surprised to come up with the same answer. You probably already know these things, short hand math.

                      I just cant remember all the formulas for what you do.. JR



                      My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                      • #41
                        JR> And I have always been horrible at math

                        Folks that build stuff can't really be horrible at Math;
                        Bad at arithmetic? maybe.
                        They use to basically beat it in to us (well the nuns did anyway).

                        Sure arithmetic as drilled in school helps expressing ideas to others
                        and gives you a language/vehicle to learn what others have done.
                        But after that math is patterns, and patterns of patterns that just keep going
                        till they are completely divorced from our every day real world but
                        can still be brought back in a way that matters here.
                        The way arithmetic is pushed (fairly dry) has ruined math for lots of folks
                        but it is more like saying you can't sing if you can't spell the lyrics in
                        some weird language you don't use.

                        I'm just semi-ranting because it bugs me to see "bad at math"
                        getting airtime it does not deserve because you are obviously
                        able to apply the ideas.
                        --
                        Tom C
                        ... nice weather eh?

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                        • #42
                          can somebody tell me if it can be proved that 1+1=2?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by dian View Post
                            can somebody tell me if it can be proved that 1+1=2?
                            Yes. Put 1 egg* into an empty basket. Then add (i.e. +) 1 more egg. Then carefully count the eggs in the basket. Repeat multiple times to confirm, in case you miscounted the first time.

                            *Note: If eggs are not available, suitable substitutes would include apples or oranges, or even watermelons.
                            Lynn (Huntsville, AL)

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                            • #44
                              no, that cant be it.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dian View Post
                                can somebody tell me if it can be proved that 1+1=2?
                                Here you go...a page from Whitehead and Russel's Principia...

                                https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/tex...aat3201.0001.0 01&frm=frameset&view=image&seq=401

                                but be advised, if you're not a professional mathematician and use math more as a tool, your time would be more profitably spent learning some practical math rather than farking about with abstruse, quasi-philosophical stuff like this.

                                Regards, Marv

                                Home Shop Freeware - Tools for People Who Build Things
                                http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

                                Location: LA, CA, USA

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