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OT: Odd problems with the "new" Ranger

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  • #31
    Originally posted by MattiJ View Post

    Instead of keep teasing us go and measure the charging voltage when truck is idling
    What part of "the vehicle is at the dealer for warranty repair" did you not understand?

    I did not bother to measure it, simply because I am not fixing this, they are. All I needed to know was that the battery was low, to confirm the guff the vehicle computer was dishing out on the display..... In other words to confirm that there really is a problem.

    Everyone keeps sending me out to measure voltages when they know or should know that the vehicle is not "here". Never mind that it don't matter a hoot since Ford has to fix it.

    Originally posted by RMinMN View Post
    I suspect that the temperature sensor has nothing to do with the battery charging. I think it simply controls whether the engine shuts off at a stop or not. My vehicle has autostart an it works fine when the outside temp is warm but it doesn't stop the engine when it is cold out. Something about no heat in the interior when the engine is stopped, something that seems important when the outside temp is -32.
    Possible, but battery performance and characteristics are very different over temperature. It is a "chemical machine", and charge voltage needs to change with temperature.

    Even simple solar battery charge controllers use a temperature sensor on the battery to control charge voltage. Mine does, for instance, a plug-in sensor goes to the batteries to check actual temperature.

    Given that fact, it is very likely that Ford also had the minor amount of brains to put a temperature sensor on the battery and use that to control BOTH the autostart and the charge voltage.

    Given that the problem became worse when the temperature went down, it's quite a reasonable idea that the bad sensor is responsible for the issue. Since they did not change the sensor yet (no spare in stock), I could make all you armchair mechanics happy by checking the charge voltage after some driving as been done. If the battery voltage is then low, as I suspect it will be, then the measurement will mean something.

    I'm going to pick up the vehicle this morning, and drive it up North tomorrow. We'll see.

    Last edited by J Tiers; 02-17-2021, 09:00 AM.
    2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan


    It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

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    • #32
      Emissions control can dictate how the engine runs at below normal temperatures. I know many will let the engine idle fast(up to 1500) until the catalytic converter warms up. I am sure this also controls the transmission shifts too. I have a fair distance to travel before I need highway speeds so I usually start the car and get rolling right away. I find the car warms up faster with some load vs idling in the driveway. I find shifts lazy until the engine warms and once warm all good. Since most new cars are using electronic heavily most dealers can monitor a car with a computer. Seems like Ford just put a system in service with little real data on how it would work. My wife had a 5 liter Mustang which was built great. It also had a system for music, phone and satellite which literally did not work right from day one. Ford never fixed it and the dealer would offer to check it for 100 dollars each time. Very frustrating but, I find no brand is immune.

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      • #33
        I don't think it is that bad. The dealer did use the computer to diagnose, which I think is not finding the problem, because the trouble code cannot possibly cover all things, and there are not sensors for every possible problem..

        It said "bad battery", but that was probably a voltage measurement. I do not know how a lead battery can regulate to 11.5V and still be a strong battery for starting etc. Chemically, acid strength (charge state) regulates voltage, so it is pretty much completely controlled by charge state, which is an externally controlled parameter.

        There has been no evidence of battery discharge even sitting for several days. If it was drawn down to 11.5V overnight, it should be dead in two days. It has not been.
        2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan


        It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

          What part of "the vehicle is at the dealer for warranty repair" did you not understand?
          ---

          Given that fact, it is very likely that Ford also had the minor amount of brains to put a temperature sensor on the battery and use that to control BOTH the autostart and the charge voltage.

          "trust but verify"
          Or in this case make sanity check that the Ford grease monkeys actually did something about your problem.
          Warranty or not, I'd rather spend 2 minutes with DVM than sit stranded on the highway in the freezing cold car for 2 hours.


          You are also giving way too much credit for Ford Engineers to do something reasonable.
          Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

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          • #35
            AGM batteries have better starting ampere outputs than ordinary lead acid, so that alone might be the reason why the engine was still starting. Somebody has tried out a motorcycle AGM battery using a V8 car engine, and it worked time after time, which certainly impressed me.
            The charging managment system in that truck will not be unique, probably most Fords will share it, and possibly other makes as well, knowing just how much interchangability there is in motor manufacturing nowadays.

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            • #36
              It turns out that the sensor module is in fact a VOLTAGE and temperature monitor. It interacts with both the charge system and the autostop/start. So it is quite reasonable that if it is getting the wrong (in what way I do not know) data, it may not charge properly.. Since it continued to work (at least to drive OK) with it bad before, it probably will now, with a new battery.

              Probably it would kill a new battery if it were not replaced , but should be replaced in about a week when they get it. Meanwhile I am off soon to where it is much colder, -20F, so we will se how both issues work, assuming it stays that cold. It's about time for the usual Feb. thaw up there, but this year is odd, warm in January, cold in Feb.

              I'll measure charge voltage later, after it has had time to settle down to the voltage it should be.

              AGM better? I have not seen that to be "much" different. AGM have problems too. Starts a V8? SO? A lot depends on the circumstances, engine temp, etc. A couple of small AGM will operate a UPS for 10 min or so, drawing 30+ amps, but a regular lead battery would do that too.

              There would need to be some difference in the construction. Having more plates per cell will always give more current, other things being equal, but it also can kill the battery faster. Thin plates, thin insulators, minimum-minimum amount of acid.... not a recipe for long life.
              2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan


              It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by old mart View Post
                AGM batteries have better starting ampere outputs than ordinary lead acid, so that alone might be the reason why the engine was still starting. Somebody has tried out a motorcycle AGM battery using a V8 car engine, and it worked time after time, which certainly impressed me.
                A motor cycle battery has very low CCA. It will turn over a V8, but you can't expect it to work for very long. The battery works better than expected because most cars start on the first revolution thanks to fuel injection and electronic ignition.

                Dan
                At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                Location: SF East Bay.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by danlb View Post

                  A motor cycle battery has very low CCA. It will turn over a V8, but you can't expect it to work for very long. The battery works better than expected because most cars start on the first revolution thanks to fuel injection and electronic ignition.

                  Dan
                  Spot on.

                  Was it 90 F during the test, and it was just run? Or 9F and it sat overnight? One of those is much more impressive.

                  There is CCA, and there is capacity. Cranking an engine 15 seconds at several hundred amps actually is only a couple Amp-hours. With sufficient CCA, a couple burglar alarm batteries could handle it. But they do NOT have the CCA.
                  2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan


                  It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    It's official:

                    The bad sensor has zip to do with the auto stop/start. The sensor is bad, and may be disconnected (I do not know, not my direct problem at the moment), but auto stop/start is again working. That should improve city gas mileage a bit.

                    Many say it has no effect, but on a new tank of fuel, after a reset, idling during just one stoplight can reduce the computed average by over a mile per gallon up to maybe 30 or 40 miles total. Past that, several stoplights may be needed, and it will be less easy to see the effect. But it can tick down a tenth of an mpg in one stoplight well into the tank. So I think it can have a noticeable effect.
                    2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan


                    It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                      .

                      Many say it has no effect, but on a new tank of fuel, after a reset, idling during just one stoplight can reduce the computed average by over a mile per gallon up to maybe 30 or 40 miles total. Past that, several stoplights may be needed, and it will be less easy to see the effect. But it can tick down a tenth of an mpg in one stoplight well into the tank. So I think it can have a noticeable effect.
                      It all adds up --- and in my case total aluminum frame and skin, 1 liter 3 cyl. V-tec engine with two different intake cam profiles coupled to a 5 speed manual/hybrid system - with auto stop, probably even specifically selected tires, even though all they have to carry is 1850 lbs (with AC) did I mention a drag coefficient of .25? and walla -------- you got something that really belongs in the Smithsonian rather than out on the road with all the "lesser vehicles"

                      I love my little baby, this was a 127 mile mountain trip back in october, 73.5 MPG's averaging the speed limit... I got 69 mpg's going uphill to a higher town and 78 coming back down, great heat - ice cold AC and tunes that will blow your brains out...

                      I have taken quite the hit this winter from short trips and being on the enrichment and just plain having to churn thicker fluids but at my very worst I still get what the typical prius best is...

                      plus who gets to boast it was built in the same factory as the legendary NSX acura??? (closest i'll ever get to one of them lol)



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                      • #41
                        On my GM I have a way of over-riding the auto stop, for city driving I find it is a darn nuisance when you have a series of stop signs/lights etc.
                        Just a pollution control effort.

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                        • #42
                          yes, there is a button that over-rides it for that ignition switch cycle. It will be back on next start.

                          The biggest nuisance I see is not being able to trigger a stop. If at a light, and someone turns right on a red, which is legal most anywhere, now you need to scootch forward. Well, doing that makes the autostop start the engine, and it will not turn it off again, even at a long light. I want a "do back to normal stopping" button more than one to switch it off..

                          The easiest way to avoid the autostop if you don't want it is to do that, come to a stop, then lift your foot for an instant. If you do not exceed 7 or 8 mph, it will then not do the stop at that light.
                          2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan


                          It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MaxHeadRoom View Post
                            On my GM I have a way of over-riding the auto stop, for city driving I find it is a darn nuisance when you have a series of stop signs/lights etc.
                            Just a pollution control effort.
                            pollution controll effect: its wel known that an engine produces huge amounts of pollutants on start up. regardless of the digital world. (most wear comes from starting as well.) one of the more annoying contemporary gimmics.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                              I don't think it is that bad. The dealer did use the computer to diagnose, which I think is not finding the problem, because the trouble code cannot possibly cover all things, and there are not sensors for every possible problem..

                              It said "bad battery", but that was probably a voltage measurement. I do not know how a lead battery can regulate to 11.5V and still be a strong battery for starting etc. Chemically, acid strength (charge state) regulates voltage, so it is pretty much completely controlled by charge state, which is an externally controlled parameter.

                              There has been no evidence of battery discharge even sitting for several days. If it was drawn down to 11.5V overnight, it should be dead in two days. It has not been.
                              With today's advances it doesn't take a strong battery to start a car/truck. In warm weather my SUV usually starts on the second compression. At -15 it needs 3 compressions to start. I've disassembled a starter from my 1956 Chevy car and I have disassembled a starter from my 1995 Ford F250. No comparison in the size of the starter. Even though the Ford has a big V-8 and the Chevy had a small 6, the Ford starter is smaller and starts the engine much easier.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dian View Post

                                ...... (most wear comes from starting as well.) .......
                                It does, but NOT from that sort of start......

                                Wear comes from oil-starved starts, the first start of the day, or after some time sitting When the engine is off for a minute or so, the oil is still in the bearings, and the start is not nearly that wear-inducing. Running the engine is also wear inducing, especially idling at low oil pressure.
                                2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                                Keep eye on ball.
                                Hashim Khan


                                It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                                Comment

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