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OT: Odd problems with the "new" Ranger

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  • #61
    Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post
    why don't vehicles have electric lubrication pumps instead of mechanical? An electric pump could run prior to the starter engaging on an engine with "dry" bearings.
    An accumulator is a better/cheaper/more reliable solution.
    IIRC, manufacturers were heading in that direction some years ago, but other advances have probably made them largely unnecessary (as AK mentions).
    Location: North Central Texas

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Joel View Post
      An accumulator is a better/cheaper/more reliable solution.
      IIRC, manufacturers were heading in that direction some years ago, but other advances have probably made them largely unnecessary (as AK mentions).
      For sure - for pre-prime that's all that's needed - still take a solenoid and some valving and relay and programming but way cheaper than having to do all those things and have to include a pump and motor, good post...

      Comment


      • #63
        An electric pump is another unrelated source of failure.... "why did the engine sieze up?" ......... "Because you were supposed to have the electric oil pump replaced at 40,000 miles, and it is now 41,200 miles.... Sorry no warranty, owner did not follow maintenance instructions, the estimate is $6257.86 to fix".

        About that "strong battery"....

        It may take less to crank newer vehicles, but it still takes a good bit to crank at -2F, which is when I cranked it and it cranked/started just like it was 90F. No sign of slower cranking.
        Last edited by J Tiers; 02-19-2021, 02:44 PM.
        2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan


        It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post


          On most engines bearing clearances and oil pump make all the difference in the world with oil pressure in the lower RPM range, when you get to know certain engines you can actually use it as a gauge, again IF you know things like viscosity/RPM's and accurate temperature and the difference between "new" and "clapped out",

          there's exceptions to the rule like super high performance engines that use little piston pissers mounted in the block, they are an immediate bleed down and therefor hard to judge, even though they compensate with a much larger pump the open ports will release all the goodies almost instantly... so the engine shut down test and watch the light is about useless.. still, even in those engines, connecting an oil pressure gauge and knowing what to expect could still prove to be valuable again IF you know things like viscosity/RPM's and accurate temperature and the difference between new and clapped out... you would just have to take your pressure readings at idle and use them for a rough comparative purpose only...

          I brought up the old VW's because I do know for a fact it's a good rough draft of finding out the conditioning of the engine and it's not just the fact that all those rod bearings and main bearings and oil pump added up together can give you a fairly accurate gauge about the internal condition of the engine, they have one more huge factor that can cause incredible rapid oil pressure loss, they are about a 50/50 mix of aluminum/magnesium case, they do not hold up well in the engine main bearing department --- most engines just come in different main bearing size with the ID's --- the old air cooled VW's not only had 4 choices on main bearings on the ID --- they had 4 different choices on the OD too --- almost all VW's needed an align boring of the engine case if they had close to 100,000 miles, and if the crank or flywheel was slightly unbalanced could be way earlier than that, some would hammer their cases to the tune of leaving .030" or more clearance between the main bearing mounts where the two bearing halves rested, if you don't think that has an effect on oil pressure along with worn bearings and oil pump your greatly mistaken, again --- paying attention to details and getting to know one certain brand means you know what to expect and can gauge things pretty accurately,

          some might wonder "how does a tight engine even have 5 seconds of reserve pressure to begin with? - there's no elasticity in oil so even the smallest leaks around bearings and oil pump would result in almost immediate bleed down"

          there's two answers to this question --- all's you have to do is ask what's elastic inside an engines oil pressure system? --- first off - the pressure relief valve, it's nothing more than a spring loaded plunger and during shut down is far away from it's relieve port and just a spring loaded dead end, it's the main factor for creating a slight pressure reserve for the bleeddown test --- the other factor can be the oil galleys themselves --- depending on engine design many are drilled for access and then plugged in specific area's that create a "vertical dead end" for air pockets --- air pockets are the perfect pressure spring...
          thats interesting, but as oil pressure is dependent on rpm and temperature you really are building a 3-dimensiolal map there. i havent looked at this for several years, but as far as i remember the oiling system on my vw-air-cooled, its pretty complicated with different bypasses and also varies from year to year.

          are you actually saying you watch the pressure on shutdown? then the question of how fast the sensor is comes up.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by dian View Post



            are you actually saying you watch the pressure on shutdown? then the question of how fast the sensor is comes up.

            Yes Dian --- would load the clutch some in second gear just to keep the engine from coasting, then shut the key off and turn it back on almost immediately or when you knew the engine was fully stopped - then just watch the dash lights for the oil light to come back on and count the seconds...
            It's a simple test but it's a valuable one, IIRC some cases did have two relief valves and some just one, the principle is the same, if the engine was severely worn inside the light would be on immediately and in fact while doing the test the loading of second gear itself is the first part of the test - if the engine was severely clapped out the light would start flickering just in that, you had to verify with another sender unit and then finally a gauge just to be sure but lots of times it was just a quick test because you already heard "loose mains" you could hear loose mains by just going back to the engine while it was idling and giving it a quick rev - in the climbing side of the RPM change you would hear them hammering at the case, this was the OD part of the bearing and the case being wallowed out...

            I have another valuable test that I use all the time to help diagnose vehicles --- IF they are manual transmissions, It's a short-cut and what I call a "po pholk" compression test, also great to use while buying a used vehicle because you can just do it on a test drive,

            park vehicle on mild hill front end down--- shut off engine --- put in second gear or if really mild hill maybe even third or forth --- you might have to play with this to find the right ratio, let clutch out, vehicle will hold itself against the hill by it's own compression but bleed down WILL always occur just with things like piston ring end gap and the finer details, allow the cycle to complete while counting the seconds, repeat - repeat - repeat for as many cylinders as the vehicle has and throw in an extra one to play fair with the first one because you might have started partially up the bore, You should have very uniform scores for comparison purposes --- If you "glide" right through a cycle you got a HUGE problem as in a burnt valve or broken rings or the like, this is not a test for overall engine health as they still could all be clapped out and uniform but then you use other guides like if it's burning oil after a long deceleration ect.ect.

            This is a great test for repair diagnoses esp. on some vehicles that have very difficult plugs to get to --- the Subie opposed 6 banger comes to mind where the dealer wants about 750 bucks to replace the plugs, they are a bear to get too but not that bad, but you can see why at least just to rule out one cylinder having a burnt valve or some major problem it's a couple minute free test for the customer rather than having to charge 250 bucks for a compression test in that you found everything was fine...


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            • #66
              Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post
              Not intending to derail this thread.
              Quick question for AK: why don't vehicles have electric lubrication pumps instead of mechanical? An electric pump could run prior to the starter engaging on an engine with "dry" bearings.
              Some large engines DO have something on that order. Doesn't pay for a car.
              2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan


              It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

              Comment


              • #67
                When synthetic engine oils came on the scene, the oil film present when the engine cooled has been much better than that left by mineral oils. This is a major reason why the wear is less. Modern oils are so much better that engine components can be tighter fitting without seizing up.
                Back when synthetics first came out, my friend did a whole seasons racing in motorcycle scrambles with a 250cc Suzuki on one piston, which showed no wear at all. We ran it at 50:1 rather than the recommended 20:1 using synthetic PJ1.

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                • #68
                  And most new vehicles, including the Ranger, spec synthetic, or semi-synthetic oils.
                  2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan


                  It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                    The thing has an "autostop engine" feature, where it stops the engine at stoplights etc, if the brake is on. Recently it stopped doing that, and investigating, it comes up with "vehicle charging". It will be "vehicle charging" even when I have driven 200 miles non-stop.

                    Measured the battery this morning, before the snow got too deep, and the "12V" battery was at 11.5 V, clearly under charged. It seems that the charging system is not performing, although it has not yet quit on me.

                    The other one I did not notice until recently, since we have had some unusually cold weather (-18C). Before it warms up, the transmission kicks like a Missouri mule, and nearly stops the engine, because it does not fully shift. The only way to warm it up seems to be to either let it idle for 15 minutes, or to drive it about 3 blocks. I suppose the fluid does not fully circulate unless the drive shaft is turning.... dunno.

                    Both are problems which have developed more recently, as the vehicle has 22000 miles on it now (Many trips to MN).

                    Interesting, I think.

                    It went in but they went home early due to the snowstorm.
                    Jerry, take the truck to a good Ford guy (or dealer). One of my contractors had similar issues with his nearly-new F 150. The usual parts-store battery tests didn't reveal anything, but Ford has their own long-duration load test that takes several hours to complete. Took two tries, but Ford found the OEM battery crapped out and replaced it under warranty.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CarlByrns View Post

                      Jerry, take the truck to a good Ford guy (or dealer). One of my contractors had similar issues with his nearly-new F 150. The usual parts-store battery tests didn't reveal anything, but Ford has their own long-duration load test that takes several hours to complete. Took two tries, but Ford found the OEM battery crapped out and replaced it under warranty.
                      The dealer found the same thing, but the sensor was also bad. (see posts above, I called them even before posting). Replaced battery.

                      Dealer said "take it away and drive, it's good, the sensor will not be in until next Wednesday". I did, I drove it a day, and then went 600 miles out of town.... they said it was OK.

                      So, the NEW battery s just where the OLD battery was.... low enough that autostart no longer works... "Veh charging".

                      So battery be sauced for a game o' marbles..... It was the sensor all along, just as I figured. It's a voltage sensor, and controls charging...... Now, who would NOT know that, except for a mechanic?
                      2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                      Keep eye on ball.
                      Hashim Khan


                      It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                        The thing has an "autostop engine" feature, where it stops the engine at stoplights etc, if the brake is on.
                        You and Rangers man... Autostop? What the heck is that chit. I get it if it was an electric vehicle but its not, or is it? JR

                        My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

                        https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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                        • #72
                          I had a Ford F150 a while back. One day I lost the speedometer while driving home. The shifting became very rough and only when the engine was revving very, very fast. When it did shift it was like there was no clutch; It jerked and made a hell of a racket.

                          The problem turned out to be a blown fuse in the instrument panel.

                          It might make sense that the rough shifting is due to low voltage to the shift control electronics.

                          At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                          Location: SF East Bay.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Could be low voltage, but the voltage is not THAT low. Autos should, and do work fine as low as the 9V standard starting voltage. The electronics likely works at 1.8V, 2.7V, or 3.3V, possibly all 3. The servo stuff may need nominal 12V, but batteries are anywhere from 10.5 to over 14V, so being that tight on required supply would likely not make it through testing.

                            Originally posted by JRouche View Post

                            You and Rangers man... Autostop? What the heck is that chit. I get it if it was an electric vehicle but its not, or is it? JR
                            Was ist los?

                            Many new vehicles have that. Better mileage, less emissions, no inefficient smoggy idling. It's a good idea, I like it, Ford has it, but I like the Ranger enough that I would not be upset if it did not have that.

                            When I sat down in ot it was SO much better than the Chebby or Nissan that it was as if I had been driving one for years.
                            Last edited by J Tiers; 02-21-2021, 01:40 AM.
                            2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan


                            It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by JRouche View Post

                              You and Rangers man... Autostop? What the heck is that chit. I get it if it was an electric vehicle but its not, or is it? JR
                              I got caught in a construction zone in the summer. It was hot so the air conditioner was working. Long wait. Engine shut itself off, then restarted itself to get air conditioner working again, then shut off as the interior of the vehicle was cool again. Engine only run when necessary, fan operated while the engine was stopped.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                It's a must if you have a hybrid, every things right there in front of you to make it happen and there's ways of cancelling it out if you find it annoying for certain situations, I like having it coupled to my 5 speed manual hybrid because the choice is all mine on whether I want to engage it or not, pulling up to a stop sign to wear I can already see there's no traffic and it will be an instant pull away after I stop I just keep the car in gear and it will not activate,

                                seeing a yellow light ahead and having to stop for a traffic light I know Im going to be there for awhile so I keep the car in gear and apply the brakes to milk the energy return out of the momentum then when Im about stopped I slip the car into neutral and the engine shuts off as soon as im totally stopped - light changes and the split second im in first the engines fired up and im already letting out the clutch...

                                there's all kinds of other ways of getting it done on conventional vehicles - some very good and some not as good just depends... I believe in it's infancy their was actually just a beefed up conventional starter system on some - another words small pinon gear engaging the flywheels larger ring, count me out - that's not worth it... now they have all kinds of other ways of getting it done without any wear to the main starting components ....

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