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  • TTS

    TTS in machining usually refers to Tormach Tooling System. I believe they have a trademark on TTS with that meaning.

    Basically it consists of a 3/4 inch R8 collet that has been face ground so that when clamped on a 3/4 shank tool the face of the collet is slightly above (retracted into) the face of the spindle. The "proper" TTS tools and tool holders are simple a 3/4 shank tool/holder with a collar that registers against the spindle nose. Often this system is paired with a spring loaded drawbar that is released by compressing the springs.

    I have a Tormach mill with TTS system with power drawbar as described above. It works "okay," but if you get some chatter or excessive loads with larger tools they can pull out of the spindle. I've seen it happen. The limitation is the strength of the spring stack, and the pressure rating of the pneumatic cylinder. I've added springs, tightened the draw bar, and increased the air to release it. It works marginally well. I don't have issues unless I forget and do something stupid.

    All of that is just back ground facts. Yes other systems are better. Whether you think its good or bad I do not care. My question is would going to a 1" collet have more or less hold on a suitably sized tool/holder given that no other factors would have changed?

    I can grind the face on a good quality collet, and I can make my own tools and tool holders. I have made a few of my own tool holders for special application, and that I can do so relatively easily is one of the big positives about TTS for me.
    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 02-17-2021, 08:03 PM.
    *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

  • #2
    No. A 1" R8 collet gets pretty thin, and loses a lot of strength that way. I suspect you'd be worse off, not better.

    The simple fact is, the TTS is limited in HP and rigidity. It's a "make do" tooling system, designed to work with existing spindles and tapers. You have to work within it's capabilities in order to get the best results.

    Doc.
    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Doc Nickel View Post
      No. A 1" R8 collet gets pretty thin, and loses a lot of strength that way. I suspect you'd be worse off, not better.

      The simple fact is, the TTS is limited in HP and rigidity. It's a "make do" tooling system, designed to work with existing spindles and tapers. You have to work within it's capabilities in order to get the best results.

      Doc.
      I had not considered the reduced mass of the 1" collet. That is a good point. I had just thought maybe more surface area of contact would increase net friction.
      *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

      Comment


      • #4
        For those who might not know,
        the whole deal with this collet and shank system
        to so the tooling seats on a flat register of the spindle
        so with CNC you can set your Z or tool heights
        and the tool is always seated to the same depth.
        As for to make it nice not to have to touch off the
        tool every time you use it.

        --Doozer
        DZER

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob La Londe View Post

          I had not considered the reduced mass of the 1" collet. That is a good point. I had just thought maybe more surface area of contact would increase net friction.
          It is not the mass. It is the cross section area means it is very weak in tension.
          I have a 7/8" R-8 collet, and that is micro thin.
          I did not know they made a 1".

          -D
          Last edited by Doozer; 02-17-2021, 08:09 PM.
          DZER

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Doozer View Post
            For those who might not know,
            the whole deal with this collet and shank system
            to so the tooling seats on a flat register of the spindle
            so with CNC you can set your Z or tool heights
            and the tool is always seated to the same depth.
            As for to make it nice not to have to touch off the
            tool every time you use it.

            --Doozer
            YEP. Its a cheap easy way to be able to use a tool height table. You only have to "touch off" with the first tool, and then its just swap and go. (I use a tool height setter when possible. I don't actually touch off the part.)
            *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

            Comment


            • #7
              All I can say is I know a guy that has a PC1100 he uses for knifemaking, milling alloy steels. He uses only solid R8 shank tools- typically ER collets and the like- and does without the toolchanger, simply because the TTS just doesn't have enough rigidity for him.

              TTS is a good setup, for what it is. You just have to work within it's limitations.

              Doc.
              Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Doozer View Post

                It is not the mass. It is the cross section area means it is very weak in tension.
                I have a 7/8" R-8 collet, and that is micro thin.
                I did not know they made a 1".

                -D
                I think a 1” R8 collet is extended such that the tool is gripped external of the spindle bore. Have never heard anything good about them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think the 3/4" size is probably the best compromise in that available area. I wonder how a slight 2-3* back taper shank and matching back tapered collet would work in a tts system like that. It would still load when the collet is sprung, would help seat the toolholder against the collet face and would prevent the tool from creeping out under high loads.

                  Side note, how do you like your Tormach? One just popped up for sale locally (1100 series 3), and I'm really thinking about buying it.
                  Last edited by Dan Dubeau; 02-18-2021, 10:44 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dan Dubeau View Post
                    Side note, how do you like your Tormach? One just popped up for sale locally (1100 series 3), and I'm really thinking about buying it.
                    I like mine a lot. Its the best Chinese import machine I have ever bought. Ok, it might be a tie with the Precision Mathews 14x40 lathe.

                    That being said I absolutely hate the automatic tool changer. It worked great for about a month. I even used it unattended (lights out) for a couple jobs. Then one day while I was standing there watching it the darn thing crashed. I spent two weeks trying to fix it, and it kept crashing. I carefully checked everything. I meticulously went through the installation and calibration procedure and it just kept crashing. Finally I ripped it off the machine and setup to run without it. Its run almost flawlessly ever since.

                    I did lose a limit switch a month or so ago, which interestingly is the only thing to fail on the 14x40 lathe. The safety switch for the chuck shield.

                    I use it all the time. When I first bought it the intent was for it to be used for prepping mold blanks to go on the little high RPM Speedmaster Mills. (** don't buy those without reading my rant about them) Now I use it every day for running jobs and for doing prep work and secondary operations. Its so busy I am seriously considering a decent manual mill for basic stock preparation. Maybe one of those Grizzly/SouthBend 10x54 mills.

                    Generally my experience is mirrored by many Tormach owners. I am NOT a fanboy. I am an experienced Chinese import tool user. Will the Tormach do aerospace work? Well maybe. It depends on what you are cutting, your ability to compensate for tolerances of the machine, and the tolerances of the parts themselves. Will it cut aluminum within a couple thousandths or better if you take reasonable finish and cleanup passes? All day long. Will it cut steel? I use it for cutting 4140HT a few times a month. It has a sweet spot with 1/4inch coated carbide mills in steel and it will do a passable job pushing a 3/8 coated rougher. In 4140HT the best I can get while engaged is about 1.03 - 1.1 Ci^3 MRR. That's good enough for the occasional steel hand tool. The numbers say I should be able to do better, but its still not a 2 ton mill. As one previous poster mentioned there are users using R8 tool holders cutting tool steel with them, and there are others machining titanium with them. (There are different types of titanium alloy so don't get to excited by that.)

                    The biggest weakness in my opinion is the spring drawbar and pneumatic release. It works, but if I get full load with a 1/2 inch Alu-Power or AlumaCut end mill and it can pull the TTS holder out of the collet. I think its the amount of force you can get with the stack of bellville springs and still be able to compress them with the pneumatic cylinder. Most of the time its "good enough," by I think if that collet was pulled up with a wrench or a light impact it greatly increase its "good enough" range.

                    I suppose I should mention that I don't think their paint likes my coolant. (I run flood blast SC520 at around 5-6%) The guy who is a prissy pants about wiping every last drip, chip, and dust particle off his machine every 2.5 seconds is going to go insane to see paint coming up like on my machine. I do not care. The machine does the job I bought it for and a whole lot more. Its been doing it for a few years now. I don't run it full time, but I run it every day and usually for several hours at a time. I also work a lot of weekends and its usually running the whole time. About the only time it isn't running when I am in the shop is when I am welding. I've never had a noise issue the few times I forgot and ran the MIG, but I try not to weld and run any of the CNC mills at the same time.
                    *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Bob, I think you just cost me a lot of money . I messaged the guy and am trying to go look at it tonight. We'll see what comes of it.

                      This one doesn't have a tool changer, or enclosure (does have coolant pan and power drawbar with tts) so it's less appealing to me, but even still I think it will be a good entry level machine for some products I'm trying to produce. Knowing the toolchanger isn't reliable makes me happier that it isn't there. Although we used to have a machine at work that was manual change only and I HATED running it. Ironically the guy that bought that machine from us is selling it right now too.

                      I'm not fussy about looks, more of a function guy. Building an enclosure is easy enough though, and I'd probably do that as I hate coolant and chips everywhere.

                      Do you run mold pockets with it? How does the control handle 3d surfacing? 3d surfacing is something I'd love to do occasionally but the lower rpm spindle and fact I have no experience with the controller has me curious. I could always add a secondary high rpm spindle off the side and use different work offsets though.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I suspect that a HSK spindle taper would do everything that you want, dead length in Z with a great deal of tool holding power at high spindle speeds.
                        This would be an excellent choice with a new machine.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bented View Post
                          I suspect that a HSK spindle taper would do everything that you want, dead length in Z with a great deal of tool holding power at high spindle speeds.
                          This would be an excellent choice with a new machine.
                          Tormach offer a bt30 upgrade spindle for about $2k. Would probably be a much better way to go if you planned on running production with it, as it would be much more repeatable and reliable tool changing than with the TTS/r8.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You can buy 1" collets for R8 but most of the clamping length is outside the taper in the spindle. An extremely dangerous situation. The design is begging for a strong clamping ring to be fitted to the end of the collet.
                            My biggest collet for R8 is 20mm, and because of the limited wall thickness of the R8 shank, the cutter cannot fit very deep. Just going down to 19mm or 3/4", the cutter can pass deeper into the collet and allow the minimum stickout that you can get away with.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dan Dubeau View Post

                              Tormach offer a bt30 upgrade spindle for about $2k. Would probably be a much better way to go if you planned on running production with it, as it would be much more repeatable and reliable tool changing than with the TTS/r8.
                              If buying a new machine do they offer HSK as well?

                              Comment

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