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Where did the volume go?

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  • Where did the volume go?

    Suppose you mix water with antifreeze- lets say equal volumes of each. The result is a volume less than two parts. Making a metal alloy probably does the same thing- yes or no?

    I expect the total weight to be the same- at least to within a very small deviation if at all.

    If I melt together one cc of lead and one cc of tin, will I get 2 ccs of solder?
    I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

  • #2
    Alcohol and water molecules kind of fit in between each other making up less volume
    Helder Ferreira
    Setubal, Portugal

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    • #3
      I understand the mechanism of it- I was just wondering if such a thing happens with metals as well. The tin/lead example is one where the relative volumes of each part are close to equal. I realize that alloys are often mostly iron with small amounts of alloying elements, so you wouldn't readily see a volume change. But in some cases you could have large percentages of each ingredient, where you could see a change in volume. Just wondering what some of those alloys might be.

      Nickel titanium perhaps, or copper silver- maybe something with bismuth?
      I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

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      • #4
        If I knew what this action is called I could learn more about it-
        I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

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        • #5
          What I find strange in alloys is the fact that the new melting temperature is lower than that of the individual metals
          Helder Ferreira
          Setubal, Portugal

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          • #6
            alloys are not some homogenous mixture of elements. they consist of phases with certain size, shape, distribution, composition and crystal structure of grains. all of that will vary, depending how the alloy has been produced and what happened to it later. e.g., when austenite transforms to martensite (tetragonal) the volume increases by about 3%. it can be more or less, depending on what kind of austenite you start from and what kind of martensite it turnes into. although the term "solution" is often used, its not like mixing water with e.g. acetone.

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            • #7
              Why do you worry about this piddling stuff? Are you on the Manhattan project? Working on Cold Fusion again?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post
                Why do you worry about this piddling stuff? Are you on the Manhattan project? Working on Cold Fusion again?
                You can never know too much. Knowledge doesn't occupy any space.
                Helder Ferreira
                Setubal, Portugal

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Noitoen View Post

                  You can never know too much. Knowledge doesn't occupy any space.
                  And when you reach the 80s it's all gone anyway. :-) Well it's often hidden in there somewhere and with the right "prompt" it may surface. :-)
                  ...lew...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lew Hartswick View Post

                    And when you reach the 80s it's all gone anyway. :-) Well it's often hidden in there somewhere and with the right "prompt" it may surface. :-)
                    ...lew...
                    Some say that the brain is like a muscle and must be exercised
                    Helder Ferreira
                    Setubal, Portugal

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Darryl did not know this, im assuming a small change but still interesting, so toss some coolant into a marker jug with once ounce increments to 8 oz's then top it off to 16 oz's with water and you now have a weaker than 50/50 mix,,, not enough to freeze an engine block but still fascinating and good to know...
                      Last edited by A.K. Boomer; 02-26-2021, 10:57 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
                        Thanks Darryl did not know this, im assuming a small change but still interesting, so toss some coolant into a marker jug with once ounce increments to 8 oz's then top it off to 16 oz's with water and you now have a weaker than 50/50 mix,,, not enough to freeze and engine block but still fascinating...
                        If you go with the coolant first, yes. It will even weigh less
                        Helder Ferreira
                        Setubal, Portugal

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Noitoen View Post

                          You can never know too much. Knowledge doesn't occupy any space.
                          BS to that. Your brain has a finite amount of storage, like a computer, micro, mini or mainframe. You can "Improve" your memory by exercising it, but not expand it.
                          So lets fill our working memory with minutia.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by reggie_obe View Post

                            BS to that. Your brain has a finite amount of storage, like a computer, micro, mini or mainframe. You can "Improve" your memory by exercising it, but not expand it.
                            So lets fill our working memory with minutia.
                            But is it really finite compared to a typical lifespan, or is forgetting just a symptom of our "programming"? There are a small number of people in the world who can remember an abnormal amount of stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia
                            Location: Northern WI

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by darryl View Post
                              Suppose you mix water with antifreeze- lets say equal volumes of each. The result is a volume less than two parts. Making a metal alloy probably does the same thing- yes or no?
                              Sorry darryl, but mixing metals is worse. Some will occupy less space than the original constituents, but some will occupy more space.
                              It all depends on the crystallograpic structure of the resulting alloy.
                              For a close approximation, the law of mixtures will give you the density of an alloy.


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