Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

turret lathe for sale

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    The CNC is not as fast, but may be more precise, and is easily set up in comparison. But if you timed the production of 10,000 parts, the CNC would often fall far behind an automatic. Of course, a manual could easily be slower than CNC.

    The problem is tool changes, which tend to be slow. When one tool is used for a lot of time on making a part, that is no issue. But with a turret lathe specifically, the tools are changed fast, and used perhaps for 4 seconds. That makes the tool change on a CNC add up to more than the machining time.

    So some "CNC" machines have a "tool bar" where the tools are already set up, and just need to be moved into position. It is sort of the turret straightened out. That can be quite fast, and is the replacement for the automatic. But it replaces some programming with mechanical setup, but still using a program instead of cams. So it is a "part CNC".

    You can find videos on YT of those.
    CNC turret lathes are really common so tool changes are not a problem on lathe.
    Some models can even utilize 2 or 3 turrets simultaneously.


    Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

    Comment


    • #17
      Those are turret lathes, not "general CNC". Different animal, similar to what I mentioned.
      CNC machines only go through the motions.

      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
        Those are turret lathes, not "general CNC". Different animal, similar to what I mentioned.
        Yabbut most cnc lathes seem to be turret type and not ”general” lathe type.
        Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by MattiJ View Post

          Yabbut most cnc lathes seem to be turret type and not ”general” lathe type.
          ????????????
          CNC machines only go through the motions.

          Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
          Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
          Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
          I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
          Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

          Comment


          • #20
            EVERY single Haas SL-2 that I have operated is a slant bed turret design, sometimes with live tooling. A good deal of US manufacturing has moved to this type of setup, if the local shops are any indication. The TL-1 is nice for prototype work, but I wouldn't want to make a living with it.
            25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post
              EVERY single Haas SL-2 that I have operated is a slant bed turret design, sometimes with live tooling. A good deal of US manufacturing has moved to this type of setup, if the local shops are any indication. The TL-1 is nice for prototype work, but I wouldn't want to make a living with it.
              Even the lowly TL-1 is available with a couple of turret options.

              Comment


              • #22
                The big ones replace chucking machines, I assume. I'm thinking of the screw machine type jobs, the one mattij linked is more of that sort, but making a larger part.

                Maybe it works out to the same thing, but I still see something of a difference. More complex parts, long cycles, not under a minute or even a few seconds pumping out of parts. Probably the CNC is too expensive to use for simple parts when you can get those parts (or the whole product) from china,

                Maybe the need for the parts made all day by old style turret machines has gone away along with manufacturing jobs.
                CNC machines only go through the motions.

                Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                Comment


                • #23
                  "Maybe the need for the parts made all day by old style turret machines has gone away along with manufacturing jobs."
                  I think this is very insightful. I don't think the need for parts ever went away, but the jobs sure did. Management hates paying for skilled labor.
                  25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post
                    "Maybe the need for the parts made all day by old style turret machines has gone away along with manufacturing jobs."
                    I think this is very insightful. I don't think the need for parts ever went away, but the jobs sure did. Management hates paying for skilled labor.
                    The manual machine jobs became fewer and fewer as numerical control advanced and became less expensive.
                    It becomes less expensive yearly, one can now have a 3 axis mill in the home shop, this would have been nearly impossible in 1965. Technology advances every day.
                    In 10-15 years the average Taig home shop mini lathe will have 5 axes and live tooling and cost relatively the same.

                    As far as the difference in production speeds between mechanical screw machines and CNC screw machines go, simple parts can be made faster on a cam machine, when the parts have features that are not easily done with cam driven equipment they often take a second operation. Part of this stems from the fact that many modern designers add features that do not lend themselves to cam machines, engraving graphics and text is a perfect example (-:
                    Last edited by Bented; 03-01-2021, 07:27 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bented View Post
                      .......

                      As far as the difference in production speeds between mechanical screw machines and CNC screw machines go, simple parts can be made faster on a cam machine, when the parts have features that are not easily done with cam driven equipment they often take a second operation. Part of this stems from the fact that many modern designers add features that do not lend themselves to cam machines, engraving graphics and text is a perfect example (-:
                      Yes to that.

                      New engineers are always after adding things to products and parts, and they often, perhaps usually, are unaware or uninterested in how that happens on the production floor.

                      But my thought was that the simple parts are busily being eliminated from products, or, the entire thing is shipped over to china for production. The products then appear "by magic" in the warehouse, and no complicated, expensive, and confusing production has to be dealt with. Send the paperwork, approve the sample, and "magic happens".

                      I very much suspect that there is nobody in the US who even CAN manage regular production anymore.... not of everyday stuff. There is aerospace stuff being done, sure. but nobody here has made can openers for 30 years, probably. Or many other similar things.

                      It is that level of product that was fed from the automatic lathes doing tens of thousands in a run. And we do not dirty our hands with that anymore.
                      CNC machines only go through the motions.

                      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dian View Post
                        why are you using so many drlls?
                        -Because, oddly enough, this was a drilling operation.

                        The feature produced in the part had a gas passage (the thin drill, started with a center drill) a reasonably precise spring bore that needed a flat seat (the second drill, followed by a 3/8" endmill) and then a tap drill for what was to become a threaded cap. The threading step was too shallow for a tapping head, so I did that later in a manual setup.

                        The final step was another endmill to cut an O-ring seat.

                        Theoretically, I could have turned a custom step drill- and if this had been a case of producing hundreds of these parts, I certainly would have. But I needed just 24, and it was the vry first time I tooled this machine up, hence the mismatched and kind of ragtag set of drill holders.

                        I have since cut 2" and 3" off of those ER-25 holders, and picked up two more. I also found some original W&S center-drill/work-stop units, and otherwise tweaked the toolholding a bit. I'm sure it'll get more tweaking as time goes on, but I thought it was a great start.

                        Doc.
                        Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                          It appears that the actual killer of turret lathes (other than age) is not CNC, because an automatic is often faster than a CNC at production, but rather the setup. They are mechanical, and require adjustment, cams, etc.
                          -Well, you're not wrong, but you're conflating "automatics" like screw machines, with manual turret lathes.

                          And yes, the manual turret lathe was killed by first NC and then CNC.

                          It's not that a turret lathe had any particular wondrous feature- they were built that way because that was the easiest and fastest way to produce parts, pre-computer-control. Once we had the ability to "program" a machine to do the same task over and over, people stopped buying and thus manufacturers stopped making, manual turrets.

                          Yes, it's entirely true that cam-driven 'automatics' can be and often are faster than some CNC machines, for certain fairly simple parts. Screws, bushings, pins, etc. You start needing to machine parts like ball joints, bearing race blanks, cordless drill gears, etc. then the CNC gets faster. Bar-feed a turning center with live tooling and you can have a pile of complex parts the automatics can't hope to attempt.

                          And yes, precision enters into it. I haven't given this thing a full survey yet, but I suspect that holding tolerances to .003" or better might take some work. A decent CNC turning center can hold one-twentieth that.

                          So some "CNC" machines have a "tool bar" where the tools are already set up, and just need to be moved into position. It is sort of the turret straightened out.
                          -Called "gang tooling". I'm setting up my CNC that way, since small homebrew-lathe turrets are rare and expensive.

                          Doc.
                          Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post

                            Even the lowly TL-1 is available with a couple of turret options.
                            -Hell, you can get the Tormach with a turret. It's supposed to be pretty nice, for what it is.

                            Doc.
                            Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              While being far from a proper turret lathe my Southbend 9 inch with Hardinge tailstock turret on the bed instead of the regular tailstock is a very handy tool
                              . I have 3 half inch capacity reasonable quality drill chucks mounted on the turret together with a bar to act as a stop and a bush reamed half inch to take various lengths of bar to carry my tailstock die holders.
                              If I am making more than about half a dozen similar parts it is worthwhile to load up tooling as needed, but I do not then bother to set the depth stops. If more than a dozen or so then I set the depth stops.
                              I can still use the lathe for normal work, providing it is short, as I cannot have tailstock support.
                              I use it with a 5c chuck on the mandrel and get reasonable results quickly for the type and size of parts I need for building model steam engines..
                              My Myford ML10 does the jobs needing tailstock support.
                              I paid $ 100 for the turret some 30 yrs ago. They turn up on E bay occasionally.
                              I hope this is encouraging. David Powell

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Doc Nickel View Post

                                ........... you're conflating "automatics" like screw machines, with manual turret lathes.

                                ...............
                                Not really, I see them as two different things (as they are), and said so.

                                The manual turret lathes I see as killed by the expense of actually employing a person to act as the control unit. Add to that the lack of ultimate precision, and the fact that the customers for such parts have all moved to china, since those volume production lower precision parts are typically in consumer stuff.

                                Then the cam machines are great if you want volume, and do not need high precision, but they are mechanically programmed, and require (shock/horror!) expensive and scarce skilled labor to set them up, plus the even higher volume parts they make are again used in consumer stuff that will never again be made in the US.

                                Plus the higher precision parts that are still needed in the US are also lower volume, so CNC can handle them just fine, and the investment is OK because of the higher value per part and one-step-to-finish production that does not involve an operator to run.

                                Rather than "conflating" them, the automatic is simply more comparable to the CNC turret as shown in the original 3 turret video. The speed advantage of the cam automatic in knocking out simple parts is not relevant if all those parts already went to china. The chinese can buy the exact same CNC cheaper, and pay lower wage to an operator.

                                The manual turret lathe is an "automatic" that uses a person as the control unit. Obviously if you can get rid of that (drunk,stoned, union wage) person, get faster production, AND get high precision in one step, what's not to like?
                                Last edited by J Tiers; 03-02-2021, 10:28 AM.
                                CNC machines only go through the motions.

                                Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                                Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                                Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                                I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                                Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X