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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post

    This is such a common narrative, and one I've never really understood based on my experience with used machines. What are you doing, busting castings? I've rebuild tons of machines from The US, England and Europe and have never once had a problem that wasn't readily solved (well, accept crappy Euro mill spindle designs, but thats crappy design not lack of parts) . Every part I've needed was commercially available or could be made. The only only minor challenge was new departure bearings in the Monarch and Levin, but there are easy ways to adapt metric bearings. Its not a factor imo.
    This^^^^^^^^^^^^

    People go on about "old machines you can't get parts for".... But seriously, what "parts" do you NEED? As I mentioned, if big pieces are unrepairably bad, the entire machine is kaput, sel off the remaining parts.

    That would have been the case pretty much the day after the machine was bought new.

    May be I should oughtta shut up. If more folks understand that "orphan" machines are not suddenly without value, prices will go up, and I'd have to pay more for them.

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  • Mcgyver
    replied
    Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post
    The only issue I have with a mill like yours is that its basically an industrial orphan. That makes parts, service, and support difficult at best.
    This is such a common narrative, and one I've never really understood based on my experience with used machines. What are you doing, busting castings? I've rebuild tons of machines from The US, England and Europe and have never once had a problem that wasn't readily solved (well, accept crappy Euro mill spindle designs, but thats crappy design not lack of parts) . Every part I've needed was commercially available or could be made. The only only minor challenge was new departure bearings in the Monarch and Levin, but there are easy ways to adapt metric bearings. Its not a factor imo.
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 03-12-2021, 07:04 AM.

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  • SVS
    replied
    Sounds like a good way to make a small fortune..........Out of a large one.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    I would not know who had the legal rights to the design or at least the drawings (there is a legal presumption of copyright to the original author or company). So zero clue as to who to ask. I do not believe there would be any patent, other than a design patent, and if there were, they have been public domain for 50 years. Copyrights last something like author's life plus 50 years, and can be renewed. That is avoidable by re-drawing the plans to a new "representation". Any trademark has been inactive for 50 years.

    No, I am very sure that it would be a great way to invest money that you would never get back. It would cost too much to make. Lewis really made "kits". They sold the plans with the castings, doing the heavy machining and alignments, and leaving the making of the other parts to the end user/kit builder. Screws, spindle, all the smaller stuff that could be made with lathe and drill.

    Nobody these days would even consider that. Not when they can buy a mill-drill for small money. So it would be making finished machines. Redesigned for safe operation, since the originals are totally open and are just "made of" pinch points etc.

    All for a horizontal mill? A type that "everyone knows" has been obsolete for 70 years? Ain't even a chance.

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  • nickel-city-fab
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
    I have the drawings

    * You can get many parts from Logan, any bearings, and typical wear parts, belts, accessory parts, etc, etc. Try that from other companies, Clausing, Southbend (the new one) etc.
    I consider the south bend to be pretty well supported as far as finding parts (ebay) etc. but the Atlas and the Lewis are truly orphans. I think the reason why the atlas is so desirable in the hobbyist market is that it fills the right size niche. Built solid cast iron but still a "bench top" size.

    I know you own the drawings and an original set of castings or the Lewis mill, but what I was asking is, obtaining the rights to it. As in copyrights, patents, etc. and do you think it would be profitable to offer a mass-produced Lewis mill today? Could it be done?

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post

    I actually wonder if you couldn't get the rights to the design of your mill and start making them again. Or at least publishing the drawings. The only issue I have with a mill like yours is that its basically an industrial orphan. That makes parts, service, and support difficult at best. Even if the drawings were out there somewhere, would be a better situation than nothing. That is the reason yours was so cheap -- its basically an unsupported, unknown.
    I have the drawings........ it's the castings that are an issue as far as a reissue, not regular "parts". That, and expecting to make any money at it.....One would not. Most of the castings for ANY machine , if damaged beyond repair, are grounds for scrapping. Just like a bent truck frame.

    And the Atlas mills are not supported either. Just like the Atlas shapers..... most parts are not obtainable. Clausing does not have them. I do not know how that is any different from mine.... BOTH are industrial orphans.

    Most parts for Monarch, LeBlond, K&T, etc are so expensive to obtain (if you can buy them) that THOSE are industrial orphans as well. Feed screws at $2500, and so on. Parts come from "parted out" units or they are not obtainable at all in a practical sense, and must be made. (Here is where Bented steps in with the "cheap hobbyist" comments, but working shops are no different)

    The difference in price is "the other way 'round". It is not "why was mine so cheap?", but "why is the Atlas so expensive?", that is the issue.

    The answer is not any "support" that is theoretically (but not so much practically) available from Clausing, it is the "NAME". Atlas is "collectible". Logan, although very well supported*, and a superior lathe, is not "collectible", so an Atlas or South bend (barely supported at all) is priced as a collectible, more than as a tool.

    So it is with the Lewis, or many others. Not being "trendy" means the availability of arguably equal or better functioning machines for less.

    * You can get many parts from Logan, any bearings, and typical wear parts, belts, accessory parts, etc, etc. Try that from other companies, Clausing, Southbend (the new one) etc.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 03-11-2021, 09:51 PM.

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  • JoeLee
    replied
    Originally posted by tom_d View Post

    Unlike my BP, it can do it in my second floor apartment. Not that I would, but I could.........
    You've got a point there.

    JL.....

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  • tom_d
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeLee View Post
    Nice, but it can't do anything that I couldn't do with my BP.

    JL.............
    Unlike my BP, it can do it in my second floor apartment. Not that I would, but I could.........

    Leave a comment:


  • nickel-city-fab
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
    Sure.

    But the basic machine is small. I got a somewhat larger machine (but still in the same "class" as a benchtop machine), which has 3 arbors, dividing head, vertical head, overarm brace, more cutters than I can use, etc, etc. with 1/4 the investment, because it is not a "known name" that has the "collectors" swarming all over it discussing "original paint" and judging the "completeness", etc.
    I actually wonder if you couldn't get the rights to the design of your mill and start making them again. Or at least publishing the drawings. The only issue I have with a mill like yours is that its basically an industrial orphan. That makes parts, service, and support difficult at best. Even if the drawings were out there somewhere, would be a better situation than nothing. That is the reason yours was so cheap -- its basically an unsupported, unknown.

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    Sure.

    But the basic machine is small. I got a somewhat larger machine (but still in the same "class" as a benchtop machine), which has 3 arbors, dividing head, vertical head, overarm brace, more cutters than I can use, etc, etc. with 1/4 the investment, because it is not a "known name" that has the "collectors" swarming all over it discussing "original paint" and judging the "completeness", etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • nickel-city-fab
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    Maybe. Looking at that first machine, it has every accessory and three arbors. It's as "loaded" as Rudy K's machine. It has probably got enough stuff with it to sell for $1200 or so. I'd not want it even so, but I recognize that it has nearly everything except a vertical head.

    I don't think Mr Kouhaupt re-scraped his machine for alignment, he did a more limited amount of work.
    IIRC, he did have the vertical head and every accessory you could think of. I don't think he had it scraped in, but there was certainly some jewelling judging from the pics I've seen -- he kept it pristine.

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by nickel-city-fab View Post

    Its the same type of machine that Rudy had, but Rudy's machine would actually be worth the money.
    Maybe. Looking at that first machine, it has every accessory and three arbors. It's as "loaded" as Rudy K's machine. It has probably got enough stuff with it to sell for $1200 or so. I'd not want it even so, but I recognize that it has nearly everything except a vertical head.

    I don't think Mr Kouhaupt re-scraped his machine for alignment, he did a more limited amount of work.

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  • nickel-city-fab
    replied
    Originally posted by lynnl View Post
    Rudy Kouhoupt did a series of articles showing his repair/renovation of a small, similar machine. Are those the same as what he did?
    Its the same type of machine that Rudy had, but Rudy's machine would actually be worth the money.

    Leave a comment:


  • portlandRon
    replied
    One of those was my first milling machine.
    They are cute but with that single "T" slot in the table not easy to position hold downs and get any milling done.
    Get it used around 1980 for less then $200.
    Wanted to sell it around 1990 and had a friend that owned a second hand tool store. He sold it for me for $600.

    Leave a comment:


  • QSIMDO
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeLee View Post
    Nice, but it can't do anything that I couldn't do with my BP.

    JL.............
    I'm just the messenger

    Leave a comment:

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