Seeking high-precision milling machine for mild steel, better than Proxxon MF70(!)

[Bob La Londe]

Little Machine Shop has some options. Accuracy is dependent on the operator.

[ship69]

> Speaking of budget, by now you must be finding that you're looking for the rare and possibly mythical unicorn.
Well I know that the Proxxon MF70... exists. If all else fails I shall just buy one of these.
- Sub 30KG (it's just 7Kg)
- More than 10,000 rpm (it does 20,000rpm)
It's just that I was hoping to do better.
- Sub £300
- Metric (I assume)


Sherline would be a contender
- Sub 30Kg (it's only 16Kg)
- 10,000 RPM (with kit)
- 250 watts
- Metric version exists
- But at £1,040.00 (incl VAT) + delivery + kit it's at the very top end of my budget

Bob La Londe
> Accuracy is dependent on the operator.
I am new to this but if the spindle has lot of run out, or the whole structure is flexing significantly under load, accuracy will at best best much harder, no?


TAIG is also a nice sounding piece of kit, but it is pretty darned heavy at 36Kg.
It is also probably more accurate than I need. It's not clear what power the motor is.
The main problem is that I can't see a metric version.

Btw, what is the advantage of ballscrew compared to leadscrew? (Taig does both)
Is it a matter of increased accuracy? (which I don't think I need).

Out of interest if I went mad and said I'll spend upto $2,000 or even GBP 2,000, but capped the weight at no more than say 36Kg (Taig's weight) would that help much?

Passing comment: I know aesthetics ought to be irrelevant, but I have to say that with fresh eyes all these devices do look painfully dated. I think it's the motor housings... but TBH, they look like they have come straight from a World War 2 movie! Not reassuring...

J


PS I was just looking at Little Machine Shop
e.g. "HiTorque Micro Mill, 2MT Spindle"

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4700&category=2122081981

250 Watts, 100 - 5000 RPM
I was wondering how hard it is likely to be on all these machines to remove their milling tables? When they quote the weight for each machine will they be including the milling tables or will they be considered to be separate products?
Either way if the tables were easy to remove, maybe that could save some weight and also make overnight storage much easier.

[BCRider]

Little Machine Shop has some options. Accuracy is dependent on the operator.

Even the smallest mill LMS has is still far heavier than he's looking for and is only 1/4 of the RPM he wants. Plus they are in the US and he's over in the UK. And, as shown by the last post, the lead screws would be imperial and he's after metric.

To be fair though it's highly likely that there is at least one local UK based supplier that would have the same machines but fitted for metric use. But they are still a lot heavier than what he wants.

I also had a second look at the table top CNC routers with an eye towards small milling. I still think it can be done for smaller jobs and with smaller carbide end mills. But darn if they won't be right at the limit given what appears to be the fairly small size guide rods. So while I'm thinking that they MIGHT work for you it would only fill the jobs needing small cutters and holes. They won't be anything like rigid enough to actually handle a 1/4" end mill trying to do more than kiss off a whisker of material on a steel part.

Bottom line is that if you want light and small so you can pack it away then it simply will not perform on heavier cuts. So you may find that yes you can turn a cubic inch of mild steel into shavings during the fabrication of a block of mild steel into a useable parts. But it's going to take a huge number of very fine passes on anything as small and light as you're after be it something like the MF70, the Servo Products used as a mill or on the table top CNC options.

I was struggling to recall the name for the Taig product over in Europe. It finally hit me. Taig is sold in the UK under the Peatol name. CLICK THIS LINK.... But oddly enough it gives all the specs in inches.... I would contact them and ask about metric feed screws and other metric parts.

Also while I still think it's the best option within all your specs it does blow your budget out of the water with the mill package being 1400 GBP. But really you're running shy on options. And I'm sure that the Servo Products drill/mill isn't going to be any cheaper. Plus being that it's basically a drill press with head positioning and an X-Y table bolted on it won't do what the Peatol/Taig will do in terms of angled cuts and other options.

[thin-woodsman]

But oddly enough it gives all the specs in inches.... I would contact them and ask about metric feed screws and other metric parts.

Why? For a screw-cutting lathe I would understand, but for a manual-feed mill it's a bit of who-cares. Just put some of those cheap iGaging Absolute DROs on, and keep the display in metric. The dials on the Taig are small and, if I recall correctly, somewhat useless - there is no provision for setting the zero.

[ship69]

BCRider Would it help if I lower the amount of accuracy that I need? I mean if the whole thing flexes a bit under extreme load, maybe that doesn't matter too much. As if I need accuracy I could just come back and cut it with a much lighter cut, no?

OR maybe I should go for CNC and settle for a high number of very fine passes, as you seem to imply?

To get clear, the main reasons why I have hesitated on CNC, are:
a) I am assuming that they are more expensive than manual versions of the same thing.
b) I am assuming that there is rather a painful learning curve.

But maybe I could set it off cutting away and come back potentially hours later to find that even a rather small CNC milling machine had eventually done some quite large cuts.

But I would I have to learn a whole new CAD system for this? I have an Entrepreneurial License copy of SolidWorks but it expires shortly and I won't be able to afford the full fees. I have previously used OnShape but that too has become painfully expensive. So presumably I'd need to learn yet another CAD system (ideally a parametric solidmodeller - so definitely not Sketchup!)

Also I seem to spend far to much of my life staring at a computer screen as it is!

How bad is the learning curve for CNC?

[ship69]

Btw, this Russian's no-nonsense look at the Proxxon MF70 highlights some rather painful weaknesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvgeMu2dYps

Also looking again, is there anything specific wrong with Proxxon's BFW 40/E "Complete Mill/Drill System" - which is c. GBP 488.73 +VAT
It's less than half the price of Sherline, 250watt motor, c.16Kg?? (DRILL/MOTOR + TABLE + STAND + parts). Top speed is only 6,000 rpm (range: 900 - 6,000 rpm)

I mean, yes, I'm sure that the Sherline is much better quality but it's also GBP1040 (incl VAT) + delivery + pulley kit to get 10,000RPM + parts, whereas I was hoping to spend sub GBP 800, unless for something truly exceptional!

[Bob La Londe]

Ah... rats they don't have it anymore. LMS used to have a much faster spindle machine with an ER16 spindle nose.

[BCRider]

Why? For a screw-cutting lathe I would understand, but for a manual-feed mill it's a bit of who-cares. Just put some of those cheap iGaging Absolute DROs on, and keep the display in metric. The dials on the Taig are small and, if I recall correctly, somewhat useless - there is no provision for setting the zero.

Adding DRO's to the mill would certainly solve the issue. It would be interesting to talk to Taig or the UK Peatol about options in that regard. I've got a pair of the cheap single axis units that I was going to put one on my table saw and see if I could get the other onto the quill of my mill. Not done yet. And even with those cheapies the bars on the scales are not that small. I think they would end up dwarfing a Taig or Peatol machine. If there's even a chance of fitting them that is.

Ship69, you'll need to ask someone else about the learning curve. I've avoided CNC and have no intention of starting. Machining is a hobby where the actual operation of the machines is as much fun as the parts I make. So no way I'm passing that along to some stepper motors.

As for rigidity it all comes down to how fast do you want to convert solid to swarf. You could reduce a solid block of metal that just barely fits any given machine with enough passes. And in the end that's what it would take if you want a small lift'able mill. Lots of metal and mass is what separates the big machines that chew up a couple of cubic inches of metal into chips per minute from what you're looking at doing.

When it comes to something like the Taig or Peatol gear I'd suggest you have a look at some videos on YT. I stuck "taig milling" into the search line and got a lot of videos back.

This on in particular is a good one since it gives us the feed and speed for the cut in the next scene. It too is CNC but it does give you a pretty good impression of what the Tail micro mill can do. And there's already been some information on available small tooling high speed options for the tooling head. So you know you can get the RPM.

(37) Machining 1018 Cold Rolled Steel Steel with TAIG CNC Mill Milling Machine - YouTube

There's a lot of others too. Some that do "unboxing" videos where you can get a feel for size and weight.

One reason why I'm thinking CNC if you insist on doing comparatively larger items in any of these micro mill machines is that you would need to do many, many repeat passes in some cases. And for all that I enjoy my machine handle turning if I were faced with doing perhaps 150 passes just to make one shoulder or isolate a raised feature on a surface that needed to be 90% cut away to expose the feature? I think I'd be considering CNC before I was at the 50th pass. We've got to figure out when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.....

[J Tiers]

The OP lost me at "high precision". When I see those words in that context, to me it flags the request as "not quite knowing what they want". After all, almost any milling machine has dials to 0.001"/0.025mm, and likely is accurate to that at least over short moves.

A description as 0.001" divisions" is perfectly OK, it indicates an actual level of general accuracy.

Sherline is the place to go. Does not do everything asked, but nothing else is closer

[epicfail48]

Passing comment: I know aesthetics ought to be irrelevant, but I have to say that with fresh eyes all these devices do look painfully dated. I think it's the motor housings... but TBH, they look like they have come straight from a World War 2 movie! Not reassuring...

Why would that not be reassuring? The technology needed for a milling machine to work properly hasnt changed hasnt changed since 1816 when Eli Whitney made the first one. Its a tool, not a sports car

[ship69]

J Tiers - My fault, I should have been more er... precise! What I in fact meant was the ability to mill & dill small holes. Ideally down to sub 1.0mm diameter (ideally 0.5mm). However I understand that spindles often have a bit of play or wobble ("run out", yes?) that make small scale milling difficult/impossible due to the snapping tools.

epicfail48 - Part of my problem here is that a Sherline is well over my original budget, and so this purchase will be extremely hard to justify. If only it was some good-looking kit that one can... "fall in love with"! I mean would you put a Rolls-Royce engine into a Ford Cortina body?

Frankly if designs have failed to at least gently improve by Darwinian evolution over the last 50 to 100 years, then frankly the engineers aren't trying hard enough. Think: new metals, new permanent magnets, quieter/faster bearings, clever weight-saving designs, cost-saving designs, slightly better ergonomics... all of these things should have had a positive impact since.... WW2! And for me to spend well over GBP1000 on something also LOOKS just the same... nope that is NOT reassuring.

Also don't forget that it's going into a quasi domestic environment so non-technical friends & family will see this superb bid of engineering and probably say something like: "where did you find this ugly, old piece of junk?"
Just sayin...

[Mcgyver]

TBH, I still don't see why I can't get a 750watt motor (like my hand drill), complete with torque control (!)

Two reasons, price and design. The market is to a certain type of hobbyist, whois shall we say not as committed as some of us (who perhaps should be committed) here, so the price has to be kept down. Smaller motors are cheaper

On design, think about it. power on a mill is all about removal rates, how many cubic inches per minute say. But removal rate also depends on the the rigidity of the structure, the two have to be matched or you can't take advantage of either. Why stop at 750 watts, why not a 7,500 watt motor? You could, but you'd need 6000 lb machine around it for it to be able to use such a powerful motor to its materiel removal rate capabilities and stay within any sort of tolerance/not shake itself apart. A hand drill doesn't have those same constrains; the force is only axial and its got you to keep the drill spinning and hand drill not.....and if they whole device wobbles 1/4" in operation no one gives a crap. There is a limit on how powerful a drill can be before it start injuring people. Same with a "toy" sized mill....motor size is limited before the infrastructure support the spindle is no longer adequate.

You've got two problems. Much to your chagrin, the underarm machine tool market just never took off. Portability of machine tools seems like an important thing to you, but you're in a small minority. And that minority is all hobby class pursuant so is more driven by prices than exceptional quality. You can still by a lathe for example that you can carry under your arm that is exceptional quality, but they're 20,000-30,000 + tooling. Nevertheless, there are many good options addressing this sliver of the machine tool market. You don't like these first because of the power available, but as explained above that's reality of the physical world. You seem to coming around to the idea that its live with it solution, or figure out a way to live around a semi permanent machine placement.

Secondly, you have a budget constraint. Don't we all. However, if after thoroughly examining the market and say only 3 choices are found that meet your requirements and all are 3x what you wanted to spend, its not that market needs to, or will, change. I see there are choices. 1) call the whole thing off, pack up the tent and go home. 2) look for a lower cost way to acquire one of the choice - i.e. used or 3) save up, get a second job, whatever, and hopefully in short order get what you think you need.

Frankly if designs have failed to at least gently improve by Darwinian evolution over the last 50 to 100 years, then frankly the engineers aren't trying hard enough.

That you would be you whining again that the world isn't how you wish it was, and at your price point. Stupid world. Or maybe its opportunity....for you to bring to market the super mini mill, batteries not included.

[small.planes]

Manual machine tools are obsolete in the general world.
There are edge cases (as usual). Hobbies is one of those.
Small lathes and small mills are generally only needed for special applications - watchmaking is one that springs to mind. Modern watchmaking is mostly done by cnc, no matter the lovely adverts showing Swiss craftsmen lovingly poking a screw into place.
Those screws are mostly made by a cnc lathe, and not a portable one.
Manual machines for watchmaking would meet the accuracy requirements, and would meet the space ones, but not the cost or the weight. For instance the Hauser M1 jig borer is a little machine (https://www.nielsmachines.com/en/hau...ories-and.html) and it’s 65kg and not in your budget.

Machine design goes through phases of curves and then angles. What a machine aesthetically looks like is way down the list compared to what does it do and how does the shape affect that.

You are looking for a unicorn, much better to get a horse (or a donkey) and ride that for a while. At least you can be learning.

Dave

[ship69]

Mcgyver - Interesting. So if I understand you correctly, if you put too much force through a cutting tool that isn't able to be held rigidly enough, then the problem is not so much that accuracy suffers, so much as resonant shaking becomes a problem. Obviously this shaking creates noise and cuts the metal much less cleanly, but does that really matter? I mean does it create a significantly worse actual cut than a hand-held drill would? And/or would it damage tools more than a hand-held drill?

Btw, from my perspective the reason not to put a 7500 watt machine on is that it would weigh too much for me to lift, whereas a 750 watt motor itself weighs 'practically nothing'.

Your point about size of the market are well made, however there is a whole universe of "hackers", "makers", "hobbyists" and "crafters" who are a bouyant market segment who like making things at home. And most of them will not have a domestic area that is dedicated to being a workshop 24x7. So FWIW, my position may not be so very unusual.


Strewth - I just got the price for the Sherline 5410A "12in Deluxe Mill Package A" (maybe good for a beginner like me) + 4335 (pulley set) + Carriage, from Millhill Supplies Ltd, the UK distributor.
All in it comes to GBP 1,485.50.

Whereas Proxxon Micromot MF 70Milling Machine cost just GBP 287.58.

The Sherline is 5.1 times the cost of the Proxxon. i.e. I would need to find an additional GBP 1,197.

And I won't even get a quill for my money. So if I find myself trying to do any small scale production (which is theoretically possible) then I will be compelled to do bucket-loads of winding of the vertical feed handwheel.

J


PS Peatol isn't replying to emails. But assuming Peatol Machine Tools aren't dead in the water, their MicroMill would costs £1,400.00 + £25 delivery ==> £1,425. Almost the same price as the Sherline but not metric, superb accuracy (which I probably don't really need)... teally hard to shift at the end of the day... But still quill. Hmmm.

[RB211]

This forum loves to jump into the minutiae of everything, doesn't it? Then nit pick the minutiae until the original purpose of the thread is obliterated.

Ship69, you are wanting "toys" to do the work of industrial machines. Out of all the "toys", I would rate Taig as being the best one, as I have one. Never mind the fact that I spent a ton of money to give it a much heavier frame that does not move, and a R8 spindle with pneumatic drawbar, and TTS tooling. It even has a VFD and 3 phase motor. End of the day, it went from a "toy" to an "expensive toy".
You cannot have everything you want and eat the cake too.
Doesn't matter how many people tell you the answer you do not want to hear, you will do what you want and learn like the rest of us.
With exception of Sherline and Taig, everything is over priced Chinese crap, designed to be sold to people like you that are jumping in for the first time that have no experience.