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Small heat treat or ceramic oven and toolpost grinder

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  • Small heat treat or ceramic oven and toolpost grinder

    In my continuing quest of making my own piston rings, I need to buy two things----A small heat treat furnace or ceramic oven and a toolpost grinder. The heat treat oven can be very small, about 6 cubic inches would work for anything I need. the Toolpost grinder should fit a lathe with an AXA quick change toolpost. There is an interesting add for "Blackeagle toolpost grinders for AXA toolposts for about $250 USA dollars. It looks like it would work for me. My total working budget is only about $600 Canadian to buy both items. I would certainly buy "Used" as long as what I bought worked okay. If you have either item to sell, or know of someone who does, please email me at [email protected].
    Brian Rupnow
    Design engineer
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada

  • #2
    The "Blackeagle" unit seems huge and totally un-handy for almost everything I have ever used a toolpost grinder for.

    Yes, that is a pretty strong statement, but you should look at how the usual Dumore etc is made...... It is made to have a large diameter wheel, with the wheel shaft and holder as small as possible so as not to interfere with the work. The motor is out further, and drives the wheel with a belt.

    The blackeagle is just the reverse of most other TP grinders. It has the motor on-axis with the wheel, and the length of the motor parallel to the work. The device seems only to take "grinding points", that have their own short shaft. There is no way to grind something between centers without using a wheel larger in diameter than the motor housing plus holder diameter, or finding an angled "point" and turn the grinder outward at an angle, which does not completely relieve the problem.

    I think it is just a router head or similar, with an added holder. Most plans for similar units have the router head driving a wheel through a belt, the same as the Dumore, Themac, etc.

    Used Dumore are available, a model 14 , while small, is quite usable. A model 44 is perfectly fine. I have used both on a 10" Logan.

    I would not waste your money on that poorly thought-out Blackeagle tool.

    Blackeagle:

    https://picclick.com/Tool-post-grind...l#&gid=1&pid=1
    Last edited by J Tiers; 04-28-2021, 11:08 AM.
    CNC machines only go through the motions

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    • #3
      Mike--You're right, it certainly wouldn't do for grinding long shafts, but was thinking more in line with grinding o.d. of piston rings. Nothing I build is so long that the tool body would interfere with it.----Brian
      Brian Rupnow
      Design engineer
      Barrie, Ontario, Canada

      Comment


      • #4
        I bought a cheap long nose air die grinder on ebay UK, the current number is 402791045327, it is easy to mount in a bored block and the barrel diameter is about 3/4" and also slignhtly bigger than the chuck. I found it to be great value, and it does all I want pretty well.

        I tried to add a link by any means, but failed.
        Last edited by old mart; 04-28-2021, 11:38 AM.

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        • #5
          The Black Eagle just looks like a clamp for the tool post to clamp a 1/4 trimmer router in. Probably something you can make in a couple hours.

          For a heat treat oven, maybe something like this would work, but you would have to put a better control on it.

          https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Tech-...7D8ZZ91F&psc=1
          I just need one more tool,just one!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brian Rupnow View Post
            Mike--You're right, it certainly wouldn't do for grinding long shafts, but was thinking more in line with grinding o.d. of piston rings. Nothing I build is so long that the tool body would interfere with it.----Brian
            I completely understand your point.

            I may say, however, that actually, the longer parts would be much less of an issue. The size of the grinder would be less of an obstruction. It is the parts which are reasonably short, but may be smaller diameter and need support, where the Dumore style grinder is so useful. Also parts combining larger and smaller diameters, where it is necessary to reach past one portion to reach another. Of course the unobstructed parts are easy with the traditional Dumore.

            The Dumore style design did not evolve to that form by accident, it just happens to be a very versatile design which is able to access a wide variety of differently shaped workpieces.

            However, you know your requirements best.
            CNC machines only go through the motions

            Comment


            • #7
              Weirdscience--It seems that you are right. It does look like something I could easily make. I am way out of my comfort zone here, having never used a toolpost mounted grinder. Apparently this guy sells the holder with or without the motor.
              https://picclick.com/Tool-post-grind...729726960.html
              Brian Rupnow
              Design engineer
              Barrie, Ontario, Canada

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
                For a heat treat oven, maybe something like this would work, but you would have to put a better control on it.

                https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Tech-...7D8ZZ91F&psc=1
                It only goes to 1400F.

                As for a toolpost grinder, besides Dumore and excellent Themac, you can try finding an air driven toolpost grinder (not the die grinder!). I don't remember the brand name and am far from my shop now, but it comes integrated with a shank and can be mounted using an AXA/CXA-type holders.
                Last edited by MichaelP; 04-28-2021, 12:54 PM.
                Mike
                WI/IL border, USA

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                • #9
                  The George Trimble method of making rings requires neither a grinder nor a furnace. It is by a huge margin the most praised, most often successful method of making rings. Your thread here, and on other forums have had numerous responses by those hailing the method and I have never seen anyone say its not a great method. The comments are by people who have made rings successfully, often many many times. Why you are freelancing and trying every other lesser method is a mystery. In the end, its your time, money and frustration and makes for interesting reading awaiting the final result.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
                    For a heat treat oven, maybe something like this would work, but you would have to put a better control on it.

                    https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Tech-...7D8ZZ91F&psc=1
                    Might as well save some budget money and find a used pottery kiln and add a controller.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agree with Sparky. Trimble is tried and true. Not sure how much you are deviating from it, but as a beginner why carve your own path when a good approach is at hand?

                      As for grinding, the finish you get is a function of bearings and balance of spindle and motor. That's what makes TPG's expensive.....and even then the best TP grinder give just ok results (vs a cylindrical grinder). Most ring making instructions I recall want them lapped....something that is comparability easy and cheap and produces a much better finish, especially when the equipment available is a lathe.

                      On the heat treat oven, it has all kinds of uses so you went a little bigger than you require, I bet you wouldn't regret it
                      Last edited by Mcgyver; 04-28-2021, 02:09 PM.
                      in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                      • #12
                        The world moves very quickly---I just ordered a new toolpost grinder and diamond dresser from Little Machine Shop in USA. It isn't a toolpost grinder even though that's what they call it. It mounts to the topslide. Now all I have to do is find a cheap solution to my heat treat furnace requirement.
                        Last edited by brian Rupnow; 04-28-2021, 02:31 PM.
                        Brian Rupnow
                        Design engineer
                        Barrie, Ontario, Canada

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by brian Rupnow View Post
                          The world moves very quickly---I just ordered a new toolpost grinder and diamond dresser from Little Machine Shop in USA. It isn't a toolpost grinder even though that's what they call it. It mounts to the topslide. Now all I have to do is find a cheap solution to my heat treat furnace requirement.
                          For simple alloys that can be hardened with simple recipes (O1, W1or2, etc) one of those blacksmith forges off Ebay is pretty cheap. I bought a two burner, but we use it for actual occasional forging. If you want cheaper you can stack up some fire brick and use a torch you may already have for a heat source. Best part is when you are done you can stack the firebrick back on the shelf, and put the torch away where you normally do. I have heard people say for small items they have done ok with a propane torch, but I have an OA rosebud so I use that when I don't want to get the forge down off the shelf.
                          *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparky_NY View Post
                            The George Trimble method of making rings requires neither a grinder nor a furnace. It is by a huge margin the most praised, most often successful method of making rings. Your thread here, and on other forums have had numerous responses by those hailing the method and I have never seen anyone say its not a great method. The comments are by people who have made rings successfully, often many many times. Why you are freelancing and trying every other lesser method is a mystery. In the end, its your time, money and frustration and makes for interesting reading awaiting the final result.
                            I too have been following the threads on the other two sites.
                            I don’t understand the resistance to following Trimble’s method.
                            But, you know, once that sail is raised........!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've just posted an add on my local buy and sell newspaper looking for a small, electric heat treat oven or ceramics oven 110volt or 220 volt. If you are in Ontario, Canada and have a used one to sell, please contact me.----Brian
                              Brian Rupnow
                              Design engineer
                              Barrie, Ontario, Canada

                              Comment

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