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  • #31
    Originally posted by BCRider View Post
    I don't doubt that a two axis DRO for the lathe would be nice. But many of us get by just fine without one. Later on? Sure, upgrade it to a two axis setup. For now though spend any extra money on tooling.

    You're going to want a few things right off the bat. First is an AXA size quick change tool post and a good number of tool holders. Using shims in a four way post (which never does hold four tools unless you cut them down) gets old REALLY fast. Especially once you find out how much better the cutters perform when precisely at the center height.

    Next is a drill chuck on an MT3 arbor for the tail stock to allow all manner of drilling into the end of your pieces. I'm a big fan of my keyless chuck. But others have a hate for keyless and prefer keyed.
    )
    ^THIS^

    A good tool post is an absolute must have. The tool post makes all the difference when running a lathe. Good tool post = great experience. Poor tool post = nothing but needless frustration. It can be either the genuine Aloris if you're $o inclined, or one of the imports. Both will repeat within the accuracy of our skill set. I prefer the wedge type rather than the piston type. AXA is plenty big enough for size. Only time you might want something bigger is when setting up a large diameter boring bar. For that application I've found it's just as easy to fabricate a large mounting block specific to the bar's diameter that mounts direct to the cross slide instead of the Aloris. More rugged than any tool post and not all that terrible having to swap out. Just plan ahead to do the boring operation last, if possible.

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    • #32
      Excellent! I’ll stay away from the DRO. Thanks all and BC Rider for all of that. What would ultimately be the ideal lathe base constructed of? A frame 3x3 Hollow structural tubing and capped with 1/2” steel plate?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Bds60 View Post
        Excellent! I’ll stay away from the DRO. Thanks all and BC Rider for all of that. What would ultimately be the ideal lathe base constructed of? A frame 3x3 Hollow structural tubing and capped with 1/2” steel plate?
        Not just a framed up stand. That's still relatively flexible. What you're after is something more like a section of something like 10 x 10 square tube with something like 3/8" wall. And then fill it with sand to damp out any ringing like resonance. A large section like that adds to your lathe's stiffness to a high extent.

        Someone else here did a table made from concrete. Something like a beam of cast concrete with J bolts to match the lathe that is something like 8 inches thick by 10 wide and just a hair longer than the foot print of your bed's feet. So around I'm guessing that would be around 5 ft long. It won't be light. probably up around the same weight as the lathe. But that's a good thing since it is the mass that adds to your lathe's ability to soak up the heavier cuts which are suitable to your size of machine.

        The good news is that if you were to cast up such a beam it can be equipped with a cross pin on one end and an end pin on the other. These 3 points ensure that the frame itself won't add any twisting force to the beam and lathe.

        Due to the weight I'd still suggest some pretty serious wood framing to hold up the beam and lathe. Or steel framing. Just depends on which material you're most comfy at working.

        To give you an idea of what worked for me and my own 12x36 here's a picture of me preparing to lift the lathe into position. This is a particularly interesting pic since it shows the J bolts being cast into the top course concrete. That's why the block and old scuba weights. It's holding the pan in place against some wood spacers you can't see. It's to prevent the concrete "floating" the J bolts and pan. Not sure it would but who wants to take a chance?



        And here it is all done and before I shoved a big roller tool cabinet and shaper in front of it.



        And the work space with tool cabinet for all the lathe and shaper tooling and the shaper.




        Construction blocks for the pedestals are mortared to the floor and between blocks. A little brick laying shapes character Lower insides filled with gravel and the top course and about 3 inches into the second from top course filled with concrete which holds the J bolts that support the lathe. This is way overkill for your CX701 though. But if you opted for it at least you have a place between the legs for some manner of storage.

        It's not as permanent as it seems. Oh sure, the top two courses will be heavy and a PITA to dispose of. But the rest will bump up off the mortar joints with a good size maul to be removed at some point. And best of all the whole thing only cost me around $150 for blocks, a bag of mortar mix, a scoop of 3/4 minus gravel and sand mix into the back of my Ranger, a single bag of Portland which I mixed in with the gravel for the upper zone concrete and a couple of lengths of 1/2" all thread rod to make the big "J" bolts

        .
        Chilliwack BC, Canada

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        • #34
          You've opened a can of worms my friend....

          From an engineering POV, you want something with a large polar (torsional) moment of inertia. To me that is a big piece of rectangular or round tubing with flats welded on. Personally I doubt the benefit, but I haven't tried so... BCRider and folks says it makes a difference, so I'll have to take their word. But something thin like flat plate, even 1/2" or 1" thick is fairly negligible. Edit: not as true as I thought. See below. Calculate for yourself here:

          Click image for larger version  Name:	main-qimg-889570026355c7c5dc7fd260e7d9fbde.png Views:	48 Size:	245.7 KB ID:	1941577

          For example. A 10x1/2" section of steel plate would have a polar moment of 41.77 in^4
          The 10x10 rectangular tube mentioned by BCRider: 232.5 in^4
          And a 10x0.375 round tube: 139.2 in^4

          I must say I'm a bit surprised. My gut feeling was wrong and the plate is more effective as expected. The polar modulus (a new thing for me), which is basically the polar moment of inertia when compared to it's radius is highest for a circular shape, which I expected. So that is the most material efficient, but far from the easiest.

          Someday I'd like bolt a small lathe to an immovable object like the bed of my Daewoo and test the difference. That would be fun.
          Last edited by The Metal Butcher; 05-06-2021, 03:54 PM.
          21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
          1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

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          • #35
            I'd suggest you maybe just get the (relatively flimsy, perhaps) stand the lathe sells with, start using the lathe that much sooner, and worry about an ideally engineered stand when you decide the one you are using is actually causing problems.

            I have a 12x36 Chinese lathe that is so generic it doesn't even have a model number, it just says "People Republic of China". It came on a stand made of what is essentially heavy sheet metal, and I have yet to have any problem getting anything as accurately machined as I need to*. Less than 1 thou when required, no problem.

            (I also have a 14x40 Taiwanese lathe that I am rebuilding. It is on a frame of welded 3x3 square tubing with a 5/16 inch wall, but that's because it came to me with no stand and I had all this free steel handy.)

            *I lied. I have problems sometimes. But they are due to me being impatient, clumsy, etc., not any problem with the machine or the stability of the stand.
            Last edited by mickeyf; 05-06-2021, 11:59 AM.
            "A machinist's (WHAP!) best friend (WHAP! WHAP!) is his hammer. (WHAP!)" - Fred Tanner, foreman, Lunenburg Foundry and Engineering machine shop, circa 1979

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            • #36
              Wow, a lot of engineering involved in the construction of a suitable lathe base. Perfect, it gives me time because it appears there is a back order of the CX701s in Alberta. Plenty of time to get the shop setup now. The Metal Butcher, is the above polar moment calculation something I could find in the Machinery Handbook? If not can you recommend any books that would assist in my journey. Material Science is a very interesting topic and I would like to gain as much knowledge as possible.

              Comment


              • #37
                Mickey, normally I'd agree with that idea. But they want $350 for the "tin box" stand. So it suggests that something at least as effective but a whole lot cheaper could be made up. Granted my focus on a heavy base or "floating beam" as part of it might be overkill for the novice. But if he's going to go to the effort anyway....

                Like you I managed on the accuracy side of things when I had the " cookie tin bases". 15 to 18 years of just bulling on anyway taught me a few tricks.

                It was when doing things like parting off that the biggest change became noticeable. On the tin boxes I often had to go into back gear and use extra care to avoid a nasty chatter and high risk of breaking off the tool. Sitting on the base shown above I have yet to need to go into back gear even on 2" stock cutting down into a bored hole like I did a while back. And I don't have to baby this sort of parting cut either. With the new base I've got a far wider range of acceptable feed rates where on the tin boxes I was limited to very specific rates to get around the chatter.

                The same issue also showed up if trying to do heavy roughing cuts. With the new setup I can easily rough off double the width and with a faster feed I could on the tin box setup. In fact with my present setup I'm not sure if I could force it to chatter before the motor stalled. This assumes reasonable overhang for the stock of course.

                The only time I get any chatter these days is when I use a fairly large form tool. But then it's limited to the tool itself or the part that flexes and chatters. I don't feel the vibration through the controls of the lathe like I got with the parting or roughing cuts when on the box bases.

                If any of that sounds at all familiar to you maybe it's not that you are impatient but that the lathe isn't being allowed to perform like it is able. When I first got my lathe back up and running and was trying this and that I found myself literally giggling like a schoolkid at how it could suddenly do things easily which were either frustratingly noisy or simply not doable before.

                I know I prattle on frequently over this with what could easily be called fanatical zeal. But it really was that massive a change. So I hope you and the others can cut me a bit of slack if I keep stepping up onto my soap box...

                TMB, that's quite the interesting chart. I haven't seen such a thing before.

                It's not only the added stiffness though. Sure, the big tube or even adding a stout piece of flat plate helps with the rigidity. But I feel that a big part of this is also the nature of the beam to damp any vibration. And steel by itself is quite "ringy" That would be where the sand filler comes into the picture. Or the use of concrete which is naturally more like cast iron at damping vibration.

                One fellow back at the time I posted about my block base did a base of his own with single stacked block risers and a piece of I believe it was 1.5 or 2" granite plate left over from some kitchen counter deal. His lathe is one of the smaller bench top models. He reported back with results very much along the line of mine. And stone like this isn't far off cast iron again for damping. And of course it is very stiff.

                Last edited by BCRider; 05-06-2021, 03:00 PM.
                Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                • #38
                  readily
                  Originally posted by Bds60 View Post
                  Wow, a lot of engineering involved in the construction of a suitable lathe base. Perfect, it gives me time because it appears there is a back order of the CX701s in Alberta. Plenty of time to get the shop setup now. The Metal Butcher, is the above polar moment calculation something I could find in the Machinery Handbook? If not can you recommend any books that would assist in my journey. Material Science is a very interesting topic and I would like to gain as much knowledge as possible.
                  Most likely. I'll be honest, I haven't read through the entire Machinery's Handbook. I generally just trust that what I need is in there and it usually is. There is multiple masters degrees worth of info in there if you understood it all. It's also pretty concise yet detailed enough to get the job done. What a great book. I don't own one, but an engineers black book may have that info as well.

                  For that sort of info, you will want a "Mechanics of Materials" type book. Lots of info on materials, but also lots on force, moment, and inertia type things. My school textbook was Mechanics of Materials 8th E by Hibbler.

                  For a Material Science book, I had De Garmo's Materials and Processes. It's more applicable to grain structure and things like that and how materials are made and formed. Less useful for you, but interesting, and technically what you would be more likely to get when you ask for a "Material Science" book.

                  My favorite overall textbook was for my dynamics of machines class. Fundamentals of Machine Component Design, 6th Edition by Juvinall. It was an upper level book, so it assumed you knew a lot already, but it was just an excellent, no-nonsense book. Very useful for the homeshop engineer with a lot of practical design engineering on fasteners, power screws, bearings, plain bearings, shaft sizing, etc. The problems are pretty real world as well, whereas some of the earlier books are more abstract as a student doesn't quite know enough yet for an all-encompassing problem.

                  Now, I can't recommend buying new textbooks. They are crazy expensive and not as info dense as some of the more dedicated shop books. Buuut, the info in them is often the same as in the 1st or 2nd editions which go used for $10-20. I had problems in one of my textbooks that were identical to the ones in the 1973 edition I borrowed from the library. In addition, many an "unsavory" student will tell you that all of these and many other textbooks can be readily obtained in PDF form on the internet, with just a quick google search. Or so I'm told.

                  Hopefully some of the older members here who have had more time to build their bookshelves can tell you about some less-student oriented engineering books.
                  21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
                  1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    But they want $350 for the "tin box" stand.
                    Yup. Agree with you on this. If no or little extra cost I'd start with the tin box. But at that much extra, yeah. Ultimately it's matter of getting started as soon as possible, or adding yet another (educational, interesting, worthwhile, but time consuming) project, and how cost sensitive your undertakings are.
                    "A machinist's (WHAP!) best friend (WHAP! WHAP!) is his hammer. (WHAP!)" - Fred Tanner, foreman, Lunenburg Foundry and Engineering machine shop, circa 1979

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Did you consider Precision Matthews? They do ship to Canada ..

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by metalmagpie View Post
                        Did you consider Precision Matthews? They do ship to Canada ..
                        I didn’t inquire on PM, from what I’ve read they will ship to Canada. However they seem to have a supply issue as well. I’m assuming all of this has to do with the Suez Canal incident.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by BCRider View Post

                          Someone else here did a table made from concrete.

                          .
                          I made a new topic with one picture. Maybe I can find a picture from a more informative angle.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by metalmagpie View Post
                            Did you consider Precision Matthews? They do ship to Canada ..
                            With our current lousy exchange rate and the recent price increase you folks in the US got hit with due to the import tariff on Chinese imports price wise there is not much to save for importing from PM. And with brokerage fees and shipping quite possibly it ends up as more. Depends on the item but it's a close thing either way at present.
                            Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                            • #44
                              Yeah thats true, not too economical picking up from down south. Well busy bee got back to me, and apparently they may have 701s back in stock within a couple of months here in Calgary. However they do have a CX709 in stock right now. I’d be giving up 4” of bed length, and going to gear head. BC Rider, do you think it would be wise of me to pick up the 709?

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                              • #45
                                CX709.... I wouldn't.. You'd be giving up a lot more than a few inches of bed length and work room. There's a lot less features in the lead screw gearing and you lose the separate feed rod for longitudinal fed cuts.

                                If you were looking to build model engines? Then sure. But I sort of got the idea from your 2 x 18 inch option you mentioned that you might be doing that sort of size on a somewhat regular basis.

                                But the real answer has to come from YOU. Be honest with yourself over the sort of parts you would expect to be able to handle. If you're playing with engines and vintage or custom cars then you're already making a pretty sizeable compromise by picking the 701 over the 12x36 CX707. But perhaps I misread what you are intending to use it for. If so you need to figure on a scope of size to suit the sort of items you want to make.

                                Don't let a few months lead you by the nose. If you pick the right lathe you won't ever need to "upgrade" at all for the rest of your life. Pick the wrong one and you'll hate it and lose financially in the end by selling a new machine on the used market and on accessories and tooling that don't fit the next bigger machine.
                                Chilliwack BC, Canada

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