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  • #46
    Originally posted by Bented View Post

    It indexes automatically by programming a tool change, he will be unhappy when it runs out of tool positions however (-:

    I will then be able to say, you should have spent another $10,000 on the optional 8 tool turret.
    Hi,

    Well, that' is just silly..........
    If you think you understand what is going on, you haven't been paying attention.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by eKretz View Post
      The main reason I don't like the 4-way toolposts is the lack of positions. 4 isn't enough. And if you need to use a boring bar in one of those 4 slots, you only get to use 1 or 2 of the others, depending on the bar and turning tools you use. On a machine used at home that may be no big deal. On a machine in a commercial shop, that's a real time killer. And changing an Aloris holder takes me about 4 or 5 seconds... Not appreciably more than changing a 4-way toolpost position. If you take into account a job where you need to use more tools than can fit in the 4-way turret, the Aloris is FAR faster.
      Hi,

      That's what the turret on a turret lathe was for in a commercial shop. It held a more tools all setup and ready for use. Still faster than any Aloris tool post. Even CNC turrets operate in a similar fashion.
      If you think you understand what is going on, you haven't been paying attention.

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      • #48
        Before I acquired a Aloris I used a lantern holder.What really made the lantern work well for me was a set of Armstrong carbide holders that held the tool bits level with no back rake.

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        • #49
          I just looked through this whole thread and I don't see where anyone has mentioned the Aloris 4 way indexable tool post that holds 4 tools and has 24 positions. It seems like the best of both worlds. It's dead center of the catalog that tlfamm linked to in post #45. Does anyone here have experience with one?

          Blurb from catalog..... TheAloris Indexable Tool Postallows 4 independent tool holders tobe locked to the tool post simultaneously. This allows the operator to do multiple operations by means of indexing the tool post to any of the 24 locking positions.


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          • #50
            Originally posted by SLK001 View Post
            Looking back, almost everything looks "obvious". Looking forward, not so much.
            This is a good saying. Do you think that the makers of Armstrong toolholders were even looking forward? I think that they were,are content with just doing the same thing over and over,hoping to survive. Edwin Dirnbeck

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            • #51
              This is MY opinion AND REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. I only want ONE TOOL in the work area at time. I retired about 10 years ago .I was running a beautiful brand new Mori Seiki cnc lathe with a ten position live tool turret.I loved the lathe ,but allways hated having all of the tools interfering with each other and the programable tailstock.FINALLY ,after I retired,the company bought a multi tasking machine that had a TOOLCHAGER on the lathe. I believe that basic cnc lathes would have had a toolchanger on them years ago.except for the legacy thinking of turret lathe operators.This brings me back to Aloris. On my engine lathe ,I have 7 Aloris holders ready to drop in.ONE TOOL IN THE WORK AREA AT A TIME.THIS IS THE ALORIS ADVANTAGE. Edwin Dirnbeck

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              • #52
                I'm with you Edwin. I don't like that about the 4-ways either.

                And Michael: yes I do some part time work for a small shop that has one of the 4-way Aloris quick change posts. It is good for jobs that use up to 4 O.D. turning tools that don't interfere with each other or hit the work, as Edwin noted. But, (and these are just my feelings on the subject - YMMV), if you need to actually change one of the quick change tool positions, it is a hassle compared to the plain Aloris. The wrench is never where you need it, and if you don't have it aligned just right you can't leave the wrench in position while you remove the holder, it blocks the removal. Most of the time I just use one of the positions and swap tools like a plain-Jane Aloris. The adjustable positions are nice, but only every 15° - which I actually like better than the 9° of the Multifix toolposts, but why doesn't anyone make one that indexes every 5°?! Would be much more handy.

                Personally, I like the simplicity of the regular old Aloris toolpost. One tool in the work area at a time when working on a manual machine just feels right. And I would really like Multifix too if they had a 5° index instead. If that were the case I would probably have one of those instead of the Aloris.

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                • #53
                  Edwin, like you I often found that the other tools sticking out at odd angles ended up being in the way. Or, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here either, some of the tools can be long enough that you can't mount the one at the other end of that slot. So more often than not during my fairly brief 4 way use I found that it was more realistically a two way tool holder with slots that could not be used for one reason or another.
                  Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                  • #54
                    Sounds to me as if the folks who hate 4 way posts must commonly have massive tool stickout!

                    The QCTP does have advantages, in that any number of tools can be available, and each will be very accurately in the location it was the last time it was installed

                    You pay for that by a more complex tool change operation, and the cost of a large number of tool holders. To change tools you must unlock, locate, acquire, transport, align and place the previous tool + holder in its storage location, then locate, acquire, transport, align, place and lock the new tool and holder. The lock/unlock each involve acquire and move with force operations. That is a large number of "therbligs" per change compared to using a 4 way.

                    An additional cost is involved with odd tool angles. Most 4 way can be secured at arbitrary angles between clicks, using the same mechanism as with the normal movement. The typical Aloris style has a totally different locking mechanism for changing the angle of the tool, which requires a tool (wrench) to adjust.

                    And, the QCTP generally must have somewhat lower rigidity, simply because it is usually very considerably cut away, with slots, holes, etc cut through it in various directions and locations, and then a second part which is secured to it by some sort of wedging means. The 4 way is essentially a big solid block of metal sitting on the compound. Both have slots for the tools, so that degree of "weakening" is a wash.

                    The 4 way has a limited number of tools, and somewhat less accuracy of location when changing tools, paid for with a simple and easy tool change. if you need more than 4 tools, you have a much more involved tool change operation, however.

                    You pays your money and takes yer choice.
                    2730

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan


                    It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

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                    • #55
                      With CNC lathes you can get creative with tool mounting. Especially when they have a large tool table, with multiple offsets. Need a center drill but have limited slots? Mount one in the side of a stick tool, and make it's offset say t0111 etc. A handy thing for that 4 pos turret would be a tool plate that sticks out with an aloris/other quick change tool post mounted on it. Yeah you'd give up some ridgity with the overhang, but being about to add another couple tools to be changed manually could really make or break time on a part. All depends on the part of course, but to add say a grooving tool and threading tool which would probably do just fine cantilevered out a few inches, but would add much more versatility than you'd lose in rigidity.

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                      • #56
                        Sounds to me as if the folks who hate 4 way posts must commonly have massive tool stickout!
                        Rather the opposite. Going for the least stickout is what caused a lot of my tools to extend back in their slot by enough that it would block the opening on the adjacent slot.

                        Another thing that reduced the number of possible tools was putting a short boring bar into one of the positions. A 4 way can only be a 4 way if we set up the tools so they all stick out the same way.... and provided they are all short enough that they don't extend back and block the adjacent slot. Put in a boring bar that sticks out the "wrong way" and it blocks BOTH adjacent slots in both the CW and CCW directions for normal tools and we now have a 2 way tool post. Or at best a 3 way... nope, it would be a 2 way because if set up for 3 the boring bar would foul the use of the cutter in the third usable position.

                        This isn't the first time around for this discussion. I know you set up and use your 4 ways in a very specific way that makes them work well for you. But given how you made them this specific to avoid shimming I'm thinking that you don't just swap cutters normally. Especially if you need to mount a boring bar which will require that you remove multiple cutters to make room. I'm thinking that you're treating your four way blocks as semi dedicated tooling which you likely switch out for other four way or specialty tool posts much like quick change post users swap tool holders. Hmmmm? And if I'm right then you're sort of doing the "quick change" idea but in your own way.

                        To be honest I tried that with my own original big four way that came with the lathe. What I found was that the original 4 way was big and clunky enough that for a few too many jobs it got in its own way. For example with my typical shaped HSS regular cutter with the nose ground at a bit of an angle I needed to angle the whole block so I could face and turn parts without moving the tool post. But the post that came with the lathe is big enough that the angle needed could cause it to try to drag the next cutter around against any long work. It was things like this that started me down the road to some other solutions and finally to just sighing and saying WTH and buying the quick change post a year or so back.

                        But I still have it and use it. These days it is set up with four dedicated and semi commonly used form tools where it works just like a champ and avoids the need to buy more QC holders. And for this it works every bit as well as you already know it does.

                        Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                        • #57
                          Whenever somebody mentions that a quickchange post is somehow "less rigid" than some other style, I have to wonder just what sort of Velveeta they carved their QC out of.

                          I'm not convinced it's even possible for a typical home-shop lathe to apply enough force to even mildly deform so much as a cheap Chinese knockoff post. I have import AXAs on the two smaller lathes, and in both cases, the spindle stalls or the insert tip crumbles long before anything starts to bend or move. And on the big Springfield with a CXA, I suspect actually managing to keep the work from slipping in the chuck would be an issue before that toolpost is gonna wobble.

                          I've tended to suspect that anyone with rigidity issues with a QC post actually has those problems elsewhere- a sloppy compound, a worn cross slide, loose screws, etc.

                          Personally, I wouldn't have a lathe without a QC post. I even put an OXA on my little Hardinge.



                          Why Aloris-style in particular? Simple, fast and common. Additional tool blocks can be had inexpensively, swapped quickly, and adjusted easily. Other post designs may have a slight benefit on versatility or whatever here and there, but when offset with less availability and higher costs, it's no contest.

                          Doc.
                          Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

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                          • #58
                            Doc, I was guilty of thinking that way about the QC posts.... right up to the point where I borrowed my buddy's AXA to try out how well it would fit on my machine. And that led me to my WTH moment and buying my own.
                            Chilliwack BC, Canada

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                            • #59
                              As for specific uses, etc, not maybe how you think. I have an ENORMOUS number of HSS and brazed tools. I have one of most any shape for any of the sizes of slot, and I am "at a loss" maybe once per year. I have them for anything I want, in multiple sizes.

                              Folks who only ever use 3 or 4 tools total can easily have holders for all of them. But without a box of reserve holders, you probably still have to change tools in "an existing slot", so why did you pay $250 for "the convenience if quick change" then, if you don't get it without an added investment in beaucoup more holders??

                              Originally posted by BCRider View Post
                              Doc, I was guilty of thinking that way about the QC posts.... right up to the point where I borrowed my buddy's AXA to try out how well it would fit on my machine. And that led me to my WTH moment and buying my own.
                              NEVER said they were not "good enough" for most uses.

                              But, it is up to you to explain how 3 pieces with a good deal of material cut out from 2 of them, is MORE rigid, or even "as rigid" as a block of steel........ Go ahead and give it a shot.

                              And, folks say "Aloris are OK, but Multifix are better". That actually makes sense, as the multifix is a big ol' block of steel with a very good grip on the holders.

                              Unless these are folks who just think expensive equals better, there must be something they are responding to. Solidity, or ease of adjustment, those seem to be it.

                              It actually appears that the Multifix addresses the objections I have, aside from the small matter of cost..... Some things are just not worth it to me..... It is arguably more solid, and clearly is adjustable in small increments (IIRC 9 degrees, or 1/40 of a circle)

                              2730

                              Keep eye on ball.
                              Hashim Khan


                              It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Anyone who does not have multiples of tools, long and short, and a few options to themselves, is probably not getting a lot done or are very efficient.. man 1/2 the short holder you can make yourself.. with a lathe and mill.
                                I Too have have a few hundred choices of HSS or carbide tooling for a very wide variety of scenarios.
                                Shorty tooling good to have around...

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