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Did find one issue with the Ranger, possible factory setup problem.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by JRouche View Post

    I completely defer to you when it comes to cars. I am confusing toe with camber, again lol..

    I do my own alignment on my old car and made a nice lil rig to check toe, camber and caster. Along with my bear alignment plates it worded out very nicely..

    But yeah, Ill always get the skinny from you re: autos. You are in the business after all.... Thanks for the clarification.. JR

    Here is the rig I made, one for each side...

    Click image for larger version

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    And a lil tutorial to make yer own lol It was a fun lil project...
    https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...tool-(homemade)
    Now that's dedication and damn good stuff JR

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post

      Yes basically what i stated in the beginning - obvious negative camber --- we could speculate more on toe in and toe out but just going by a pic don't cut it,,,
      as I also stated before the entire tread is worn at an angle - this leaves 90 degree's + on the specific blocks in question that your talking about and well under 90 degree's on the other side of the block - meaning the side of the block in view which has a lesser angle and will "appear" more rounded -
      also have to add to that - that the other side will actually undergo a natural feathering just by the load from the negative camber not being direct and "folding" that rubber over slightly with every revolution as again it's not at a 90 degree angle and therefore the top is "buckling" under the load that the bottom cannot physically support due to it being "non-existent"
      With that excessive negative camber, toe in would make the feathering appear on the opposite side.
      Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

      Comment


      • #63
        The negative camber, if it exists, is not "visually obvious". I do have sensitive levels, so I can check vs the wheel rims.

        Will check for feathering, but not likely present.

        It seems that negative camber may be "more effective" at wear when cornering than when driving straight. Would that be a fair statement?

        I can state that the vehicle has been driven at least 2400 miles since the problem was first noticed, most of that highway miles, and it certainly is not changing fast. I found out 1800 miles into that 2400, since I had not looked at the tires for a trip or two (a trip is 1250 miles +-), and it was pointed out by someone I know.

        Prior to that it was quick-checked by the dealer SM who did not see it, but that may not prove a lot, he just looked quickly and said that he did not think rotation was needed. The edge tread is such that as long as some of the complete tread was present, it would not be obvious unless you measured, which the SM did not do. neither did I, since the middle tread was clearly showing a quarter inch or so of remaining depth.
        2730

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan

        Everything not impossible is compulsory

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Arcane View Post

          With that excessive negative camber, toe in would make the feathering appear on the opposite side.
          That's a good working theory but then your original assessment of how the blocks are wearing don't add up, also have to say once again - he's got 28,000 miles on these tires, this is not some kinda major toe problem at all - this is conclusive to a tire running basically in a straight line but on one side more then the other...

          there's no doubt with what you just stated that "it could have a little help" with wear from toe in or out but it's not the main culprit...

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
            It seems that negative camber may be "more effective" at wear when cornering than when driving straight. Would that be a fair statement?

            .
            I do know most manufactures toss in a fair amount of extra neg. C. in the geometry for when the wheel gets turned, it's hard to say about the wear factor, might depend on things like sway bars and such as compression dynamics/geometry would then come into play --- but as far as the "dominant tire" during a turn I think a certain amount of neg. C. is healthy for the carcass tracking flat and not on the outer or inner edge,,, but - the inboard tire would indeed see a fair share of inside wear to the tread pattern due to it also being more neg. c. yet getting loaded on the "high side" ... so could be a fair statement at least for the side not under as much demand....

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
              The negative camber, if it exists, is not "visually obvious". I do have sensitive levels, so I can check vs the wheel rims.

              .
              I can tell you this - with honda's it is blatantly obvious and yet their wear patterns are generally no where near as bad as what you got going on,,, it's really sad when you see a tire wear this way and so much gone to waste that's left on the other side,,,

              so anyways --- cut your steering wheel all the way in one direction then go out and look at your camber,,, I have seen some chevy's that have shocked me the camber angle gets so extreme --- you will no longer have the rest of the car and the rear wheels to compare but your best view will be to get down low right in front of the vehicle and look at the two wheels and then match them up with the rest of the vehicle...

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                Dealer suggested that "driving style" affects it, which may surely be true, but....... Their suggestion was to put new tires on it and have it aligned... Remarkably helpful, I'd have never thought of that.
                Yeah, screw them trying to put it on you.

                I would contact Corporate (I have had to do it with a mustang) and voice your concerns. You really might get some help with them. They fixed me up real fast. this was 1995 so times may change, I doubt it. Public image is paramount for Corporate. The dealer is just a "rental car" yard in all respects.

                Yeah, been around a few dealers hahaah.. JR

                Comment


                • #68
                  I still think you could jack up the front axles until the tire is just touching the pavement. Then slide a shim under the tire, and if camber is the culprit, it should fit tighter on the inside than the outside (at least when the tire is new). At this point, there is probably 1/4" or more tread wear on the inside, and perhaps the shim will be equally tight inside and outside. That would then correspond to the amount of camber that was (perhaps purposely) set, I think I understand why negative camber is useful for performance purposes, especially for hard cornering. With the bottom of the tires tilted outward, the lateral vector forces on the outer tires when cornering will tend to align the tread and wheel closer to being perpendicular to the road and the angle of the wheel will be more closely aligned to the vector sum of vertical and lateral forces. However, I think the front suspension could be designed so that the wheel would automatically assume a negative camber as more force is applied to the outer wheels during a turn.

                  https://www.wheelalignmenttools.com/...alignment-faq/

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Camber-Diagram-2-768x544.jpg Views:	0 Size:	24.2 KB ID:	1948601

                  https://patents.google.com/patent/US6267387B1/en
                  [edit] Here is a patent for automatic camber adjustment:
                  Last edited by PStechPaul; 06-26-2021, 02:56 AM.
                  http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
                  Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
                  USA Maryland 21030

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post

                    I do know most manufactures toss in a fair amount of extra neg. C. in the geometry for when the wheel gets turned, it's hard to say about the wear factor, might depend on things like sway bars and such as compression dynamics/geometry would then come into play --- but as far as the "dominant tire" during a turn I think a certain amount of neg. C. is healthy for the carcass tracking flat and not on the outer or inner edge,,, but - the inboard tire would indeed see a fair share of inside wear to the tread pattern due to it also being more neg. c. yet getting loaded on the "high side" ... so could be a fair statement at least for the side not under as much demand....
                    Oh man!. haha.

                    I other words drive a front drive honda then a rear drive toyota.

                    The toy can turn circles around the honda due to CV joints. Angles that are in the design. A toyota camry has a greater caster angle possible due to less constraints of the drive line that the honda has.

                    It is the same thing you see when you watch a road grader grade a surface. He will angle the front tires to an extreme camber. Thats camber.

                    Caster is the shopping cart we all use, the front tires.

                    Toe is what makes it easy for you to remove your hands from the steering wheel to check your phone or lip stick, hahah JR

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by The Artful Bodger View Post
                      I would be wary of driving that vehicle any faster than a chicken can run.
                      I've got 28,000 miles of evidence that your statement is, shall we say, "overly worried".

                      It's VERY stable in steering, which makes me consider it unlikely to be a toe-in or toe-out problem. Good mileage confirms that, but is not proof.
                      2730

                      Keep eye on ball.
                      Hashim Khan

                      Everything not impossible is compulsory

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        From what I understand about castor it at least "can be" responsible for the change of camber angle once the wheel is turned,,, I think it's the least adjustable feature in a front end alignment meaning in many cars it's just "pre-set geometry" but not all - some do have adjustments for it...

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post

                          That's a good working theory but then your original assessment of how the blocks are wearing don't add up, also have to say once again - he's got 28,000 miles on these tires, this is not some kinda major toe problem at all - this is conclusive to a tire running basically in a straight line but on one side more then the other...

                          there's no doubt with what you just stated that "it could have a little help" with wear from toe in or out but it's not the main culprit...
                          I never said the toe was a major problem but you will not get wear on one side of a tire like that without excessive camber. From what I can see of the wear pattern on the blocks of rubber, there's a slight bit of toe out.
                          Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Doozer View Post
                            Willy- What is your deal ?
                            Just because you have never heard of something and you don't believe it
                            you are trying to prove me wrong with some court case from the 2000's
                            about something not related.?.?.?
                            If you prove me wrong, do you get a gold star?
                            Did your elementary school teach you to be right all the time?
                            Is like a contest to win a prize for you ?
                            Maybe some day you might figure out that life is about helping people,
                            not being right. Especially for sure by not trying to get people to believe
                            some bizarre chain of logic loosely related to the original subject.
                            That's how people try to argue politics. Forks make people fat so we
                            should make people who use forks pay more for health care. Yeah, sure.
                            Get over it dude. Go outside and get off the internet for a while.

                            -D
                            Wow Doozer, don't take this stuff so seriously. Honestly I expected a more mature response than this from someone who I have more respect for than you might think.

                            The citation I left here previously was an NHTSA document, (49 CFR Part 575) regarding qualifying criteria needed to address proposed vehicular rollover resistance standards. It is a 159 page document that has some very interesting input from various sources including the automakers, some very heavy reading, most of it over my head I'll readily admit.
                            The other document I linked to was a ruling of denial of a petition for these standards to take effect 13 years after the NHTSA's study into possible proposed rule-making at or about the year 2000. Subsequently only rollover resistance ratings were implemented.

                            And no it's not me that is right, I'm just conveying facts that are public record and not anecdotal claims that get passed on as US Federal safety standards. I have been wrong on many occasions and I have no problem manning up to that fact, it helps me grow and is where wisdom comes from, more so than just knowledge alone.

                            When someone claims that that the multi billion dollar automotive industry and the hundreds of millions of consumers that they serve have to meet standards that simply consist of a 55 mph full lock maneuver my BS meter goes off. There are many facets to a safety standard like this, likely why one has not yet been implemented yet.
                            Also don't forget that it was you that brought this up, not me.

                            My teachers didn't give me any stars, however they did instill into me the desire to question claims that I have reason to doubt and to not believe everything, whether that source be the printed page, the news, etc.
                            I am very thankful to them for that as it helps me to learn and understand.

                            Lastly, I would have very likely have just dismissed your assertion that a US Federal safety standard was in place that consisted of simply doing a full lock turn @55 mph, hey it isn't that big of a deal.
                            The issue I had with your post that triggered me was that while you have no problem casting a shadow of doubt on all of the members that responded to this post by stating in post #41 that there was,
                            Lots of BAD information here. Lots of opinions here based on righteous logic that are ill informed.
                            Sorry Doozer but this took the cake, when I see someone chastising the comments of others while in the same post making the assertion of a Federal safety standard that simply does not exist, well that tripped my ability to remain silent.

                            Sorry if I've hurt your feelings, this was not my intent in the slightest. I only meant this discussion to remain a polite and informative one that I believe we as adults should be able to have.



                            Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                            Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

                            Location: British Columbia

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Arcane View Post

                              I never said the toe was a major problem but you will not get wear on one side of a tire like that without excessive camber. From what I can see of the wear pattern on the blocks of rubber, there's a slight bit of toe out.
                              That's my initial assessment also - just seems like it's spent the majority of it's time riding negative camber, but you can get wear like that concentrated all on one side if toe was way off - esp. if the tires were being run at minimum or low pressures, but it would also be accompanied with heavy feathering,,, I am interested in what JT see's when he cuts the wheels all the way to one side and then looks at camber of both, besides that it seems like a puzzler because he states "no noticeable negative camber" when looking at it parked,,, so at this point will just wait to hear back from him on what he finds out - he'll find out - he's the type of guy that has too lol

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The whole point to all of this is - of course the alignments bad --- be it set to factory specs to help cover for a poorly designed vehicle or just plain off and somebody missed something,,, "Sometimes Bad is Bad" and regardless of the reason be it inherent negligence or blatant negligence the fact of the matter is - is your left with two tires that are total crap well before they should have been ------------- your last remaining option would be to talk to the tire manufacturer and with a straight face show them the pics or take the truck to them and tell them you got "defective tires" then after you get laughed at try to resume the rest of your day without feeling like a douche,,,

                                Or if it indeed is "ferds fault" take it up with them, again good luck with that one as they will most likely tell you that "your driving on roads with too much of a crown" lol

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