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Whoa! I thought $300 hammers were only available to the Military!

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  • #16
    I call B.S. on the whole Titanium hammer deal.

    You don’t get more energy out of a hammer than you put into it so spare me the velocity squared crap.

    Plus:
    Those of us who know “things” KNOW that an
    Estwing is the only hammer worth swinging.

    (It’s popcorn time)

    Comment


    • #17
      Bingo!

      In the civilian world it is called "creative accounting".

      I have a story that some years ago went around the broadcast engineering community. A field teck. for a major corporation who's specialty was TV transmitters was called to go on an emergency situation at a station. He was on another trip at the time and did not have time to go home to re-pack. He only had one pair of expensive, dress shoes with him but being a responsible employee, he soldiered on. At the station's transmitter site he found that their problem required him to climb their tower. Such towers are typically 1000 feet high and are only equipped with a simple ladder. So he climbed and he fixed the problem. Then he turned in his expense report which included the price of a new pair of shoes. It was bounced by the bean counters saying they did not pay for personal items like shoes. He resubmitted it with a note explaining why he ruined his shoes while on the job. They bounced it again. So he submitted it a third time with the exact, same amount at the bottom but no shoes were listed. It was accompanied with a note that read, "Find the shoes."

      He got paid.

      "Creative accounting". And you don't need to do a spectacular job of it if everybody is on board.



      Originally posted by loose nut View Post


      They didn't actually pay $300 for a hammer or $20000 for toilets seats, yes that one is not a misprint. That was how they spread the undocumented "black" budget spending out through other things. They just didn't do a very good job of it.
      Paul A.
      SE Texas

      And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
      You will find that it has discrete steps.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Toolguy View Post
        It's not linear. The velocity component is squared, which makes it more important than the weight component. There are upper and lower limits on what is practical, though.
        For energy, yes (1/2mv^2). For momentum, no. Momentum is mv. It's not all clear to me which one is the appropriate model. Momentum applies to the collision of objects & their subsequent velocities. Maybe energy applies because it's a matter of the force required to overcome the resistance of the wood to the nail.

        Comment


        • #19
          I do not have one of those hammers, but I do have a "Ruger" (Sturm Ruger the gun maker) Titanium hammer that was made here in Newport NH. I bought it as a collectable. They were made for Stiletto by Ruger and are marked "Ruger". I forget how much I paid, but it was not much more than the 20oz Estwings that I have.
          Last edited by CPeter; 07-17-2021, 07:13 PM.
          Grantham, New Hampshire

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          • #20
            Linear? Velocity squared? It is probably a lot more complicated. What happens in that split second between the initial contact with the nail and the point where the inward motion of the nail stops probably depends on a number of factors. Any hammer will have all it's energy transferred to the nail and then it is dissipated via friction with the wood. But how that energy is transferred will determine how deep the nail will travel on a given strike.

            I suspect there is a lot to be discovered via properly controlled experiments. While I am not putting down the observations of a given carpenter, a proper control on such experiments would be that the user(s) would not know what kind of hammer he is using. And that goes double for the person(s) who evaluate the data gathered and draw the conclusion. Only after the results are finalized would the identity of the various hammers be revealed. And at that point, no further comments from the users or conclusions from the evaluation group would be allowed. Three levels of personnel are involved: the subjects, the evaluators, and the person in overall control.

            This is called a double blind procedure. The subjects are blind to the details of what they are involved in. They only know that they are being asked to undergo one of the options being tested. And the evaluation team is also blind to what they are evaluating: all they know is the number of options and their "A", "B", "C", etc. labels. Only the person in overall control knows what "A", "B", "C", etc. actually stand for and he/she only reveals that after ALL the other work is done. This eliminates or at least tries hard to eliminate human prejudice. Far too much "science" is done without proper controls. Climate "science" comes to mind: there is absolutely NO scientific control there.



            Originally posted by Toolguy View Post
            It's not linear. The velocity component is squared, which makes it more important than the weight component. There are upper and lower limits on what is practical, though.
            Paul A.
            SE Texas

            And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
            You will find that it has discrete steps.

            Comment


            • #21
              OK, just spit-balling here.

              Momentum IS a VECTOR quantity. It has both magnitude and direction.

              The hammer has a certain amount of momentum at the instant just before it hits the nail.

              After the hammer hits the nail it has some momentum in the opposite direction transferred back into it. This is necessary in order for the hammer to stop and it does, at least, stop.

              Well, it either stops or is bounced back in the opposite direction.

              There is a "law" of physics that calls for the conservation of momentum. So, if the hammer actually stops, then all that momentum has been transferred to the nail. I am not looking into what happens with that momentum after that, just the transfer between the hammer and the nail. And, if the hammer actually stops, then the momentum transferred to the nail must be exactly equal to the original momentum of the hammer.

              But there is another case where the hammer instead of just stopping, bounces back off the nail. After the strike, the hammer is moving in the opposite direction so it has a negative (in the opposite direction) momentum. Now the conservation of momentum calls for the nail having acquired more momentum than the amount that the hammer originally had. This is necessary for the total momentum to be conserved.

              And there's a part of your physics.

              Now, to continue into what happens with the momentum that is transferred to the nail. Would the greater momentum imparted by a bouncing strike translate to a longer movement of the nail in the wood? And if not, then why not?



              Originally posted by polaraligned View Post

              So you are saying that it is the added velocity due to the lighter weight. Why would a 16 oz steel hammer with a lightweight wood handle not perform as well as the Ti hammer? Or would it?

              I saw something online that said the steel head causes more of the energy to bounce back into the hammer. That is what interests me if it is true.
              Paul A.
              SE Texas

              And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
              You will find that it has discrete steps.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by loose nut View Post


                They didn't actually pay $300 for a hammer or $20000 for toilets seats, yes that one is not a misprint. That was how they spread the undocumented "black" budget spending out through other things. They just didn't do a very good job of it.

                Spot on. And as to those black projects, if I was in charge of writing the checks I'd sign it and ask if they needed more.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Paul, you’re thinking in a sloppy way. No offense intended.

                  Momentum goes somewhere, but it does not magically multiply.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Get over it guys. The Ti hammer has the laws of physics on its side. The advertisement doesn’t say how but it becomes apparent that that a lighter hammer will have a greater velocity when swung by the same persons arm that uses a 28 oz hammer. As was said, the energy delivered to the nail is 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. All you would need is a 33% increase in velocity of the Ti hammer to make the advertisement true.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Yeah, I ain’t swinging a hammer all day. Paslode or screw gun. I like screws a hell of a lot more than nails.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        If their just after light weight and durability why not make a steel one with recesses - or better yet heat treated cro-mo 4130 or 4140 put ti to shame...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'll wait for a real scientific study to be done on titanium hammers before I fork out any money for them.
                          Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Two advantages for the hammer.....

                            1) the MV^2 energy advantage (assuming you swing it faster).

                            2) the reduction in the energy needed to lift it up.

                            When looking at anything like this, forget momentum, look at energy. Energy accounting solves all problems of the sort. Energy does not get lost. You are trying to convert kinetic energy into heat efficiently here (the nail friction converts nearly all the energy of the "hit" into heat.

                            Yes you can argue that the potential energy in the raised hammer gets converted into heat just as well. But that forgets an important point.

                            Raising the hammer uses fewer and smaller muscles than swinging it down. So it is less tiring to add the energy in the swing, than in the raising.

                            Is that worth 6x the price? Your problem. Depends on whether the difference means more money for you, or has an equivalent advantage.

                            Yes, Estwing makes some good hammers. Or did.....
                            2730

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Everything not impossible is compulsory

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I spent a lot of time on home construction sites as a kid, through age 17. Sometimes with a hammer, but more often toting packs of shingles up a ladder, carrying concrete blocks to the masons, or just sweeping. I knew a lot of men who were pure artists with a hammer, and all of them used 16-oz hammers (yes, often Estwing). For everything, including 16d "common" nails, used for framing and the largest we ever needed.

                              With practice, even a 140-lb kid can quickly sink a 16d nail with a 16-oz hammer. I just don't "get" the huge framing hammers for sale now. Who would want to swing those things all day long! And titanium? If builders these days use nail guns most of the time, I wonder if maybe the hammer market isn't being driven by plebes attempting some sort of end run around developing actual skill. It's the same thing with hobbyists (like me), especially in woodworking -- a substitution of purchased tools and jigs for skill, because we can afford them.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I had some Ti, an old handle and a Sunday afternoon. It didn’t cost much. Next time it could be Stellite or Inconel.
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