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Whoa! I thought $300 hammers were only available to the Military!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by gellfex View Post

    Amen Brother! I hired a contractor that loved his framing nailer and so much of the work was crap, some 2x4s were like 1/4" out of flush. I love me construction screws for framing, 16 & 18 ga finish guns for trim though.
    My dad kills me. Every time we do construction.... Every time, his old POS Bostich blows a seal or breaks. And he starts tearing it down to try to fix it. I start going at it with screws while he whines about the price (while he wastes hours) and I'm usually finishing up by the time he's ready for it to break again. That thing has cost him so much time I swear. And even when it is working, it loves to double fire and blow your toenailed board 1/2" out of whack. I'll be fine if I never touch one of those again lol.
    21" Royersford Excelsior CamelBack Drillpress Restoration
    1943 Sidney 16x54 Lathe Restoration

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    • #47
      Originally posted by The Metal Butcher View Post

      My dad kills me. Every time we do construction.... Every time, his old POS Bostich blows a seal or breaks. And he starts tearing it down to try to fix it. I start going at it with screws while he whines about the price (while he wastes hours) and I'm usually finishing up by the time he's ready for it to break again. That thing has cost him so much time I swear. And even when it is working, it loves to double fire and blow your toenailed board 1/2" out of whack. I'll be fine if I never touch one of those again lol.
      It's a mindset thing, it's hard to wrap your head around the fact that the cost of labor is so high that the material cost difference between the two kinds of fasteners is negligible in the big picture. There's a bunch of things like this, like using Ditra versus CBU for tiling. It only 'seems' expensive till you factor in the time saved.
      Location: Jersey City NJ USA

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      • #48
        A fair bit of difference "could" be in the handle as well.

        The recoil argument sounds good, but how much recoil is there when you are hitting a nail of far lower mass, which is being driven into a material primarily against friction. It does not seem to be so much a matter of recoil, since the nail mass is negligible, and the energy of the hit is absorbed in friction (turned to heat) as the nail moves through the wood. That system looks a lot like a shock absorber.

        It would seem that the recoil effects would be much more dependent on the wood and the characteristics of the structure where the nail is being driven than the hammer. Any "internal" characteristics of the hammer would seem to be secondary. And it sounds from the blurb that the replaceable) striking face may still be steel anyhow.

        As for the difference vs a lighter steel hammer, think of the size of head and the mass distribution per AKB.

        A steel hammer of the same weight as the Ti hammer would, if proportioned the same as the larger hammer, have to have a smaller striking face. The "claw" of the hammer would be a relatively fixed size, so the ability to expand the striking face is less.

        If the Ti hammer is lighter, but has pretty much the same size striking surface, it will be just as easy to hit the nail near the center of the striking surface with the Ti hammer as with the heavier steel hammer. It will tend to act like a steel hammer that is heavier.

        if the mass distribution of the head is similar to that of a steel hammer, then the effect of an off-center hit will be pretty similar either way in terms of the twisting effect. Again, it should act like a steel hammer.

        If the mass is "weighted toward" a steel striking surface, then the center of mass is located closer to the striking surface, and the tendency for twisting due to off-center hits may be reduced.

        The claims are probably not that far off. The value for money is debatable, but the hammer very likely is a lot nicer to use for all day work. What's that worth to you?
        2730

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan

        Everything not impossible is compulsory

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        • #49
          Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
          That's one nasty lookin pillow lol
          Hahahaaa.. Hey! Its still softer than that rock outside. You still want the rock huh? I dont blame you.

          Bronwyn cant see these photos right? ") JR

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          • #50
            Originally posted by The Metal Butcher View Post
            it loves to double fire and blow your toenailed board 1/2" out of whack. I'll be fine if I never touch one of those again lol.
            Hey, yer Pops is old school..

            Who was setting screws, or nails while he was happily fixing his nailer??
            wanna white wash my fence??

            My framing gun was and still is notorious for a double shot. It would try to sink anouther long azzed nail right behind the first.

            The nail would hit the back of the other one and it would curl up to 180 degrees and shoot right back at me.

            In a matter of a second. So yeah, watch OUT!! And the plastic that holds the nails together. That crap came flying off at record speed also. Eye wear a must.. JR

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            • #51
              Originally posted by polaraligned View Post
              Quote: "15oz Titanium head drives like a 28oz steel hammer"

              So what are the physics behind this? How is it that Ti delivers more energy to the nail and steel bounces more back?
              If it's 15 Oz It doesn't matter what it's made of it has the Momentum of 15 Oz PERIOD. Now you MAY be able to swing it faster due to lighter weight and get the Velocity a bit higher but that takes more Energy from the "swinging arm" . So it's ALL HYPE!
              ...lew...

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Lew Hartswick View Post

                If it's 15 Oz It doesn't matter what it's made of it has the Momentum of 15 Oz PERIOD. Now you MAY be able to swing it faster due to lighter weight and get the Velocity a bit higher but that takes more Energy from the "swinging arm" . So it's ALL HYPE!
                ...lew...
                It's not hype, it's simple chemistry/physics --- Ti's flammable --- every time you hit a nail a little chunk of Ti blows off between the hammer head and the nail "giving it a little more kick"

                of course you do have to replace the hammer after awhile cuz it gets too light and can bounce back and hurt you...

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Lew Hartswick View Post

                  If it's 15 Oz It doesn't matter what it's made of it has the Momentum of 15 Oz PERIOD. Now you MAY be able to swing it faster due to lighter weight and get the Velocity a bit higher but that takes more Energy from the "swinging arm" . So it's ALL HYPE!
                  ...lew...
                  The energy from the swinging arm is easier to put in on the downstroke than on the upstroke (lifting it). Different muscle groups used.

                  And the lighter hammer if made of steel will likely have a smaller striking face.

                  It's not all hype, but it may not be worth $300 to you (or me).
                  2730

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan

                  Everything not impossible is compulsory

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    So it seems to come down to either the size of the striking head (larger with titanium for equivalent weight hammers) OR the speed of the strike (supposedly faster with the lighter titanium for equivalent size but not weight hammers).

                    Honestly, you don't need a supersized head to hit your target if you are at all practiced with a hammer, so the first argument comes down to a substitution of equipment for skill. That seems like it would be a weak argument among the professional class of framers, especially considering the price premium.

                    The second argument makes the unwarranted assumption that terminal swing velocity is greater the lighter the hammer. We don't actually know that. Acceleration from zero velocity is certainly greater with a lighter hammer, but an arm can only be moved so quickly regardless of what is in the hand. I tend to doubt that there is much difference in terminal velocity between a lighter, titanium hammer and an "equivalent" steel one. IF there is enough to get an equally effective strike, then the only advantage with titanium would be less fatigue.




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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Moxiedad2001 View Post
                      So it seems to come down to either the size of the striking head (larger with titanium for equivalent weight hammers) OR the speed of the strike (supposedly faster with the lighter titanium for equivalent size but not weight hammers).

                      Honestly, you don't need a supersized head to hit your target if you are at all practiced with a hammer, so the first argument comes down to a substitution of equipment for skill. That seems like it would be a weak argument among the professional class of framers, especially considering the price premium.

                      The second argument makes the unwarranted assumption that terminal swing velocity is greater the lighter the hammer. We don't actually know that. Acceleration from zero velocity is certainly greater with a lighter hammer, but an arm can only be moved so quickly regardless of what is in the hand. I tend to doubt that there is much difference in terminal velocity between a lighter, titanium hammer and an "equivalent" steel one. IF there is enough to get an equally effective strike, then the only advantage with titanium would be less fatigue.
                      The striking face deal is not skill, it is supplying a hammer with the same size striking face as any other hammer that a worker would use. If the hammer is noticeably "different" in that respect, it will probably not be liked. People who use tools like what they are used to, by default.

                      As for the velocity, yes, an "equivalent" hammer would be the same weight, so sure. So what?

                      Calling it an "unwarranted assumption" seems to totally ignore what the hammer is FOR. If the nail does not go in as far per hit, your "skilled worker" is going to hit it harder, which means a faster swing.

                      Frankly, he will probably swing with the same effort as usual, which is going to result in a faster swing. People get used to the effort needed to drive a nail.

                      The question is whether the smaller steel hammer is "equivalent" to you, when you actually use it, and whether you care about how tired you get using a hammer all day. The it is up to you to decide if that is worth a pretty high price.

                      Maybe the "armchair workers" should swing the hammer for a while driving nails before deciding it is all hype, and that a skilled worker would not care.
                      Last edited by J Tiers; 07-19-2021, 02:08 PM.
                      2730

                      Keep eye on ball.
                      Hashim Khan

                      Everything not impossible is compulsory

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I was over my buddy's house the other weekend.
                        Was helping him fix a diesel driven Ingersoll-Rand
                        air compressor. Huge motha. Ended up being the
                        regulator valve was stuck from corrosion.
                        I forget to take my ball-peen hammer back home
                        with me, when I was packing up my tool box.
                        I asked him to put it up for me, for next time I see him.
                        He said he was going to put it up on ebay for $300
                        because it was an engineer's hammer. I hope I don't
                        have to buy my own hammer back for myself on ebay.
                        LOL

                        -Doozer
                        DZER

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                          As for the velocity, yes, an "equivalent" hammer would be the same weight, so sure. So what?

                          Calling it an "unwarranted assumption" seems to totally ignore what the hammer is FOR. If the nail does not go in as far per hit, your "skilled worker" is going to hit it harder, which means a faster swing.

                          Frankly, he will probably swing with the same effort as usual, which is going to result in a faster swing. People get used to the effort needed to drive a nail.

                          The question is whether the smaller steel hammer is "equivalent" to you, when you actually use it, and whether you care about how tired you get using a hammer all day. The it is up to you to decide if that is worth a pretty high price.

                          Maybe the "armchair workers" should swing the hammer for a while driving nails before deciding it is all hype, and that a skilled worker would not care.
                          You've done a good job of missing my point, so I probably was not as clear as I should have been. In the full quote of that sentence I had already specified that the comparison was with a lighter titanium hammer, so "equivalent" in that context was intended to mean similarity in shape and dimensions. The same hammer, but lighter.

                          Simply assuming a faster swing with this hammer doesn't make it so. If you grant the obvious, that a person can move his arm only so fast (somewhere short of the speed of a hummingbird's wing), then it is logical to ask how close to that limit a person can get with the two hammers. Sure, the lighter hammer will accelerate faster, but your speed in the 100-yard dash doesn't mean diddly to your top speed after a full lap around the track.

                          We don't know the answer to that question, so most of this entire discussion has been interesting guesswork and speculation. But to carry that further, I just tried full but normal swings with a variety of hammers (8 to 36 oz.) against a dead stop. If there were any differences in final velocity then they were certainly imperceptible to me, so I have answered the question to my satisfaction. (Done, btw, with a very experienced if out-of-practice arm.)
                          Last edited by Moxiedad2001; 07-19-2021, 04:20 PM.

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                          • #58
                            I forget to take my ball-peen hammer back home
                            with me, when I was packing up my tool box.
                            I asked him to put it up for me, for next time I see him.
                            He said he was going to put it up on ebay for $300
                            because it was an engineer's hammer.
                            $300 ?? I'm Rich! Rich! Bwahaha!

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                            "A machinist's (WHAP!) best friend (WHAP! WHAP!) is his hammer. (WHAP!)" - Fred Tanner, foreman, Lunenburg Foundry and Engineering machine shop, circa 1979

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                            • #59
                              That's the biggest stash of "kinetic improvisers" I think iv ever seen,,, damn, ever try using a wrench on something??? lol

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                              • #60
                                Well, the limit is a bit short of 100 mph. Fast enough for anyone, I;d think. That is not an estimate, that is the speed of an average fastball on its way to home plate.

                                Granted, most of us are not pitchers. But that is pretty fast, and is as fast as largish numbers of people are documented as being able to move their arm. A fair answer to your question of "how fast?".

                                Pitchers are specialized. But so are framing carpenters. I think the rule at many companies is "sink it in three hits max, or you're outta here".

                                I'd give the benefit of the doubt to people who use hammers all day. There likely is not a lot that the rest of us can teach them. I can be sure they could "sink it in three" with any reasonable hammer. And they would know how to adjust the force of the hit by arm speed etc.

                                AK, I've got plenty also. A half dozen or more inside in the shop, at least a dozen out in the shed in the "stupid drawer (hey, it's a drawer of hammers). And then there are a half dozen sledges up to a 15 lb. And 3 or 4 more by the anvil. That 15 lb will give you a workout.

                                There is a hammer size for every job. And there is the right type. It's good to have the size and type you need, ball peen, straight peen, cross peen, london pattern, claw, tack, fencing, or roofing, etc. .
                                Last edited by J Tiers; 07-19-2021, 05:35 PM.
                                2730

                                Keep eye on ball.
                                Hashim Khan

                                Everything not impossible is compulsory

                                Comment

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