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  • #16
    Originally posted by gvanzeggelaar View Post
    We are talking cad $ which is less, but it seemed a bit steep

    What part of Canada you from?

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    • #17
      I, and probably, many others, do not agree with RB211.

      Originally posted by RB211 View Post
      Let’s be real here. South Bend 9’s are sucky lathes. They do not deserve the prices they get because people are brainwashed from elders who are suffering nostalgia. They were the cheap lathes in their day, and they are desirable today only because of their size and assumed rigidity for their size.
      The part above is "sorta true". The "don't deserve the prices" part is true. The rest, well, not so much.

      Brainwashing? Nope. The "elders" probably used SB and know exactly what they are, which is a very usable small lathe which was made by the bazillions. Not the best, certainly not the worst. Very usable, a decent lathe for work to tolerances of about 0.001" or so. Not for closer work.

      It's really name recognition among folks who don't know much that drives the higher prices. That's why an SB will be listed for a lot higher price than a Logan, which is a better, heavier machine, or a Sheldon, almost all of which are a somewhat better class of machine

      Originally posted by RB211 View Post
      Threaded spindles suck. Plain bearings suck. Non hardened ways suck. Flat belt drives suck. What you presented in photos is less than what I gave away for free to a member here. (A 9c in decent condition).
      There’s no such thing as 4,000$ worth of tooling for a SB 9” lathe. This is a 450$ lathe.
      An import Taiwan made 12x36 lathe is a few magnitudes better, and yes, weighs around 1,000 lbs.
      It’s always the new guy who is afraid of weight and size of machine tools, so they gravitate to a “toy”. Weight (mass) is critical in a machine tool, more mass the better.
      If you’re willing to drop that kind of cash on a South Bend, do yourself a huge favor and get something decent, 12x36 import minimum or an Emco Super 11, or equivalent high quality tool.
      Threaded spindles were standard for many decades, and they do not "suck". There are better spindle noses, yes. And threaded spindles are not so good if you want to cut in reverse. But threaded ones are quite usable.

      Plain bearings also do not suck. If you keep them oiled, they will work for decades. And, they may actually give a BETTER finish than machines with ball bearings. To get a very good ball bearing takes a lot of precision and selection of parts, and a ball bearing that equals a plain bearing may cost hundreds of dollars. Plain bearings are adjustable, ball bearings are not.

      Non hardened ways do usually wear faster. They do not "suck". But if you keep the ways oiled and reasonably clean, you will never know the difference as far as wear is concerned.

      Flat belt drives one can argue about. They do not suck, but they tend to need to be set up right to work well, while v-belts are less fussy. About 1 HP per inch of width is their usual limit on power, but most use with "step pulleys" won't get to that level, because of low belt speed.

      The SB lathes are not "toys". They are a small lathe, made reasonably well, if a little on the light side, and are very usable. A LOT of folks here have them and do good work on them.

      The blanket condemnation by RB211 is not justified, and I can only assume he was having a bad day when he wrote that. I'd not put too much faith in it.

      It's worth mentioning also that the lathe is not the whole story. The operator is important as well. A skilled machinist can get good work out of a machine that most would just scrap. That's not a recommendation of bad machines, just a fact. So getting hung up on the best machine is not useful, you may wait a LONG time to find it, if you ever do.

      Aside from price, which was quite ridiculous, there is nothing necessarily wrong with whatever that guy was selling. My personal opinion is he probably got a couple cans of spray paint, made the machine look pretty, and decided it was "worth" a lot. But I do not know that, and could be wrong. The guy may have believed the price was on-target (he was wrong, unless the thing with accessories was new in the crate and in perfect condition). That makes no difference to you, the price was silly regardless of the reason behind it.

      Now, if you CAN get an industrial lathe in the 12 x 36 size range for a price you are willing to pay, go for it. Most of them are good machines, and the weight has advantages in terms of what it will do. (Don't spend all your money on it, because you will want more tooling, and probably other machines as well.)

      As industrial machines, they may be beat to death, worn badly, etc. You need to be just as aware of those things for larger lathes as for smaller, and be aware that industrial machines often do not hit the hobby market if they are still usable and working well.

      RB211 himself owns a machine which is one of the best lathes ever made. A Monarch 10EE. But his needs a fair bit of work, he does not use it, and he is considering selling it. So much for original machine quality. It's all about condition.
      Last edited by J Tiers; 09-28-2021, 11:56 AM.
      2730

      Keep eye on ball.
      Hashim Khan

      Everything not impossible is compulsory

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      • #18
        I have run lathes ranging from a relative giant of the 1890s which used to turn full size loco wheels to Unimat 200s
        I enjoy my Southbend 9 inch immensely.
        Providing I treat it fairly, use well sharpened tools, take cuts up to but not above about 50 thous deep, and run it at appropriate speeds it provides me with excellent work.
        Certainly there are" Better" lathes available, but at much higher prices generally.
        I am sure there are plenty of folk who share my view of the SB 9 as an adequate machine for their needs,( available at reasonable prices)in home hobby shop use.
        Regards David Powell.

        Comment


        • #19
          That's like saying, "Steam locomotives do not suck, they were the standard for many years". Or saying the drive system on my 10EE does not suck. It's loud, it's complicated, there's quite a few negatives to it that people seem to think become acceptable because that giant 3hp DC motor is Smooooooooothhhhhhhh. Perhaps I am a child of the digital age, give me a brushless SERVO to drive that spindle instead.
          Here is a fair statement. If you want a small lathe, anything under 12", a South Bend is much better than any of the small Chinese imports, you're just dealing with 1900's technology. Sure, plain bearings have some good things going for them but even the railroads went as far as BANNING them. Cabooses had those cupola's on top so they could spot hot boxes on a long train. Do you want something that is so rigid yet so delicate? Funny, that's how I feel about the bearings in my 10EE, all of you made me paranoid, thinking I need to have a clean room before exposing those bearings.
          If you are going to spend over 4,000$ on a lathe, I would FULLY EXPECT it to have a Camlock spindle, hardened bed ways, feeds for both, gearbox for threads, etc.
          Oh, when buying a used machine tool, don't pay extra for the tooling, expect the tooling to go with it.
          And one final thing. The Harbor Freight 8x12 lathe is a simple lathe that in my opinion is as rigid as a South Bend. I had the lathemaster version that I gave away to another member on this forum with some nice tooling. However, don't go spending 1000$ for it.
          The 10EE was bought on an online auction for 1600$. I'd suggest you do the same but that would be a dickish thing to say, such deals are once in a lifetime.

          Comment


          • #20
            Railroads banned plain bearings simply because of the problems with them, which were undetectable by the staff on the trains who were up to a half mile away from them when in use
            . The user of a SB 9 is within inches of the bearings, can easily oil them before each session of use and ,if he or she has the ability to smell hot oil, or feel for an overheating bearing then the bearings are unlikely to ever give major problems.
            I have had and used some lathes with ball or roller bearings. Some of them were fabulous, some produced slightly inferior results thanks to bearing issues.Indeed, yesterday I was running a Logan 10? inch for a friend. It worked splendidly.
            With plain bearings taking out shims can eliminate play, there is NOTHING that can be done at home to a worn out ball or roller bearing to improve it short of replacing it.
            For the home shop machinist the simpler older technology, especially those on a tight budget, is frequently the better choice.
            Regards David Powell.

            Comment


            • #21
              The lathe in the OPs picture doesn't even have a tailstock handwheel. I guess it would be OK to turn it with your fingertips. (NOT).
              Kansas City area

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tundra Twin Track View Post


                What part of Canada you from?
                Couple hours west of Toronto

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yeah, another deal will come by in a little time. For a lathe with no QCGB I don't care how much tooling their is, it ain't worth THAT much! Plus I'd question the "almost no wear on the bed" given that it had to be almost totally rebuilt along with the new paint. Something smells fishy there.

                  And another factor to buffer some of the replies. There's hot spots in North America where used machine prices on sizes that fit into a smaller home shop are very low. Mostly in the old manufacturing heartland of the north east US and south east around Toronto in Canada. Around a lot of the rest of the country prices are quite a lot higher..... But even out my way where prices are high this guy with his "rebuilt" Southbend is dreaming.

                  For new prices depending on which province you are living in you might keep a watch on KMS tools and their King brand 10x22. It's a nice solid machine for this size range. Currently priced at $3200 but they go on sale fairly regularly and drop into the 2.9K range. Not a huge help but it aids with absorbing the sale taxes.

                  And hey, for the same $3200 Busy Bee currently has their CX709 13x24 lathe on sale. Down by quite a lot in fact. And at 240Kg in weight it is literally twice the machine as a South Bend. And about 50% larger swing. I noticed the report about the high speed setting. But that's something you can work on later. In the meantime for up here in Canada it's a steal of a price on a new lathe with a stout bed and good features for the size and cost.

                  And yes, Welcome Aboard!

                  What are your machining goals that prompted you to consider that South Bend? In other words are you just after a lathe in general and what size range of projects are you looking at.
                  Chilliwack BC, Canada

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I had an earlier Busy Bee lathe, I think a 13 by 36. Certainly a fair bit bigger and heavier than a SB 9
                    . I used it in my part time machine shop business for over 20 yrs and when I closed shop gave it to my apprentice.
                    It made me money, did all I needed reasonably well, the electrics blew up and were replaced with North American stuff.
                    However, it never felt " Nice " to work, but it was a good deal when I bought it secondhand. in about 1990.
                    Certainly not a glorified " toy" like some of the very small lathes on the market.
                    Well worth a second look by a beginner.
                    Regards David Powell.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by gvanzeggelaar View Post
                      Couple hours west of Toronto
                      Daviid Powell is a great resource to have
                      You could also contact Loose Nut . look for his postings on this site
                      He belongs to a machinist club in the London/Sarnia Area I believe

                      Rich
                      Green Bay, WI

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                        I, and probably, many others, do not agree with RB211.
                        ...........
                        Now, if you CAN get an industrial lathe in the 12 x 36 size range for a price you are willing to pay, go for it. Most of them are good machines, and the weight has advantages in terms of what it will do. (Don't spend all your money on it, because you will want more tooling, and probably other machines as well.)

                        As industrial machines, they may be beat to death, worn badly, etc. You need to be just as aware of those things for larger lathes as for smaller, and be aware that industrial machines often do not hit the hobby market if they are still usable and working well.
                        That is exactly the reason why I passed up on used industrial machines: they are usually beat to death and come with nothing by the time they are being sold. I would not be opposed to a new Taiwanese 12x36, BUT there are other factors to consider: such as budget and physical limitations. I do not have a basement or a garage, any machines I get will be inside a house on a wood floor. Weight limit. 4 grand will buy the (new) Taiwanese lathe with ball bearings and hardened ways, BUT then how are you going to buy all the tooling when you already spent your entire savings on the machine?

                        So for me, a nearly-new South Bend with everything was the ideal choice. And yes, people did do pretty accurate work with them back in the day, including optical work. As you said, it all depends on the person using it. I regularly hit my numbers to a thou or two just using the dials -- as long as I do my part.
                        25 miles north of Buffalo NY, USA

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Why spend $4500 on a Southbend when you could instead buy a wonderful Atlas lathe for only $700 more?!

                          https://nh.craigslist.org/tls/d/nash...380001065.html

                          Craigslist is getting crazy these days...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mickeyf View Post
                            Call me cynical, but disassembled, cleaned and repainted is not the same as "completely rebuilt". If he actually did that, he likely bought some of the parts, such as the "new lead screw", and of course he will have receipts he can supply. If he made all the parts himself he will have a well equipped shop or access to one, and should be able to in some way confirm to you that he has the ability to have done that.

                            If you do find a used lathe that you think is priced fairly, ideally you want a knowledgeable friend to evaluate it for/with you. At the very least there are a couple of things you can look at to determine how badly it is worn. Check the backlash in the cross feed. Set the carriage lock so that the carriage just moves freely up by the chuck, then crank towards the tail stock. If it binds, that suggests the ways are more worn at the head stock end, which is where most work is done and where wear will first appear in a machine with any significant amount of use.
                            Nothing cynical at all about pointing out the "rattle can" restorations that abound in the used machinery market. The definition of rebuilt can certainly be a fluid one. It helps to be reminded of this from time to time.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by gvanzeggelaar View Post

                              Couple hours west of Toronto
                              That's another thing to factor into purchasing decisions. Sometimes, through no fault of our own, we live near industrial centers with an abundance of good used machinery available at reasonable price. Some live in a virtual machinery desert and are hard pressed to find anything at all no matter the price. This is often the deciding factor when contemplating the new vs. used decision.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Toolguy View Post
                                The lathe in the OPs picture doesn't even have a tailstock handwheel. I guess it would be OK to turn it with your fingertips. (NOT).
                                It also is missing the compound lead screw.

                                That thing is a piece of junk.
                                Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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