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Wonderful wago lever action electrical connecters

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  • #61
    Was just thinking about poor Edwin,,, guys always getting enthused about something - tossing it out to the universe only to get it picked on,,, just hope he doesn't take it personal that's not what were trying to do,,,

    it's just kinda like "hey guys look at this new wrench it's one size fits all" ----- :-( wha wahhh...

    Comment


    • #62
      Are you saying that with wire nuts "Each time you changed something in your setup you would have to cut back the wire..."? Again, I am not a licensed electrician so I don't know the US NEC by heart, but I am not aware of any requirement in it for that. I am totally open to hearing chapter and verse if it exists. And also hearing just why that is in there so I can understand it's inclusion. Or perhaps you are talking about some code or regulation or law in Germany? Do enlighten me.

      Again, I worked in electronics with everything from things with coin cells for power up to professional transmissions facilities working at power levels of 25 KW, 35 KW and even 50 KW. Lots of both AC and DC Voltage and current. And I have seen many, many failures. Many of those failures could be traced back to design mistakes by the original design engineers. And I had to fix them.

      My point is this, I virtually never cut a wire nut off the wires. This would shorten the wires and, yes it is not a desirable situation. I would untwist the wire nut and, if needed, straighten the already stripped wire ends. But in around 90 % of the cases, even that straighten process was not necessary. Pull out the unneeded wire or add a new one and put the wire or a new one nut back on. I never had to re-visit one such repair due to a problem that was due to not cutting back to fresh wire.

      As far as being convinced of anything, I am always totally open to learning new things. I have not used these Wago lever style connectors or any of their imitations. Frankly, I don't trust them and most installations and repairs that I performed were going to be my responsibility for the foreseeable future. I worked there 24/7/365.25 and I was often THE go to (and wake at 3AM with a phone call) guy when things went wrong. I like my sack time so I wanted something that was as close to 100% reliable as I could get.

      I hear all the arguments for and against this style of connection. And I also know how they are built inside. With over half a century of experience under my belt, I think these connectors and others like them are far from that ideal.

      As for the success stories and the certification by one or another agency, such things can be influenced by the conditions of the certification process. Do they even conduct their own tests? If so, how complete are those tests? Do they conduct "man off the street" tests or do they just use their own, in house personnel. Their in house personnel would probably be as close to the world's top expert on the subject as you could get so they would probably use "best practice" when testing them, The man off the street could be a lot different. And even the average electrician, for that matter.

      Many electrical connectors are rated by their manufacturer with a "number of cycles" or number of "connect-disconnect cycles". It would be interesting to see if Wago has any such specification. And what about a handling specification after assembly? Do they specify that the wires must not be rotated in the connectors? Or give any angular or numeric or limits to such handling after assembly? What about vibration? Can they be used next to a motor that produces vibration? Any numeric limitations on that? Etc.

      But my mind is OPEN to new information. I needed a lot of convincing on some other techniques and devices, but when good reason was shown, I did change my mind. However, it is going to take a lot more than agency certification or anecdotal evidence to make me do so in this case. And I fully realize that many things that I have said here and elsewhere are just that, anecdotal. But when enough people offer such evidence, one must, at least, give it some serious consideration. Unfortunately, a lot of anecdotal evidence has been forthcoming on this device and that anecdotal evidence seem to be well divided between the two sides.

      I see no reason not to use them as a bread-boarding tool. Go for it. But for other uses, I say use some caution. Avoid over-handling them when stuffing the wires into a box or when performing changes to a box in which they were already used. Avoid too much vibration. And avoid their use by uninformed personnel, but then that also applies to wire nuts.



      Originally posted by ikdor View Post
      I'll start by admitting that a wire nut is likely a better electrical contact and cheaper.
      There is a place for these though; before these all house installations used a spring loaded in-but-never-out connector. Each time you changed something in your setup you would have to cut back the wire, and there is already very little of the solid core 2.5mm2 in the connection box inside the wall.

      ...<snip>...

      Nobody here is going to be convinced to use something new if they've used something else, but there is no point in claiming that the product is not fit for purpose.
      Paul A.
      SE Texas

      And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
      You will find that it has discrete steps.

      Comment


      • #63
        I do know enough about the code to know that wire nuts are not required.

        But if that is inside a wall, a BOX IS. And it must be accessible.



        Originally posted by gellfex View Post

        You mean this splice I found above a drop ceiling feeding a fixture wasn't to code???? There wasn't even wire nuts in there.

        Click image for larger version

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        Paul A.
        SE Texas

        And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
        You will find that it has discrete steps.

        Comment


        • #64
          Bottom line folks is this, take an experienced electrician, have him twist wires together that he can physically see with his own eyes and with his kliens - snip the ends off flush or close enough, then put the appropriate sized wire nut on and tighten it down to his specs,,, Now --- ask him "are you absolutely 100% positive that this is a solid connection?" answer "YES I AM"

          Now -- have him strip a wire to specs, slip in into a blind hole of a "lever lock" flip the lever down and then ask him "are you absolutely positive that this is a solid connection?" answer "NO IM NOT"

          Again - no further questions...

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by ikdor View Post
            I'll start by admitting that a wire nut is likely a better electrical contact and cheaper.
            There is a place for these though; before these all house installations used a spring loaded in-but-never-out connector. Each time you changed something in your setup you would have to cut back the wire, and there is already very little of the solid core 2.5mm2 in the connection box inside the wall. This one makes changes a breeze without cutting back the wires to the point you need to run new wires through the wall again.
            They are also excellent for prototyping high current hardware.

            And then I'm going to state it's more than likely properly engineered, even though armchair engineers will spin all kind of stories. Wago is a German family owned company supplying probably half the industry DIN rail terminal hardware in Europe. They are the standard and you can tell by all the chinese counterfeits of their hardware showing up.
            Note that these connectors are UL486C compliant but at a lower current rating. For instance the 4mm2 size is rated for 32A but only 20A under UL.

            Nobody here is going to be convinced to use something new if they've used something else, but there is no point in claiming that the product is not fit for purpose. The parts have specifications and will function perfectly within them. If you decide to use them for much higher currents and they do melt, that says more about the installer than the product.

            They also have a white version for ATEX zone 1 and 2, but I guess in the US everyone just uses wire nuts in their oil and gas infrastructure :-)
            Many things are fine in their ideal environment, under limited conditions.

            "Armchair engineers"? Suit yourself, doesn't hurt us any whatever you think. But, the company does not prove a product good or bad. The product is either good or bad on it's own under any particular conditions.

            As it happens, I don't like the spring-type lever-lock ones. But I find a somewhat similar connector that uses a screw to be a superior connector. The screw is on the back side of a plate of metal which it pushes down against the other side of a "box" which the screw is threaded into.

            I don't much like the outlets etc with a screw to connect the wire, either. I now only use the ones where the screw clamps a plate down onto the wire. They seem to work very well, and don't try to unscrew the clamp as the ones held by looping the wire around a screw can.

            It's not the type of contact so much as the way it is held, by a tthermoplastic holder, which has the plastic as part of the holding mechanism. They are fine if they never heat up. But if they do, they will let go entirely. I want the wires held by an all-metal mechanism, with the plastic as an insulator only.

            As far as I know, the real Wago have a plate under the clamp, so they are to that extent similar to the connectors I like. But the plastic clamp mechanism is the problem.
            2730

            Keep eye on ball.
            Hashim Khan

            Everything not impossible is compulsory

            Comment


            • #66
              Again, I am not a code expert, but I rather doubt that it was the NEC folks who stopped the use of solder. I suspect that when wire nuts were accepted by the NEC, the individual electricians simply decided that they could easily do a lot more work per hour with them instead of soldering. Lower cost, ease of use, etc.

              I mean, just consider how an electrician working on new construction would need to heat a soldering iron. I think they had torches for that with a bracket that held the iron in the flame. Or long extension cords from the temporary construction power panel. And what about a cold winter day with a sub-zero wind blowing through the holes where the future windows will be installed. With wire nuts available and approved and generally trouble free, I can't see any modern electrician electing to use solder. But it is not an NEC thing. It is a personal choice thing.

              https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/...10-14-b.14042/

              https://www.electrical-contractor.ne...de_and_So.html

              And many more hits, all seem to say soldering is "per code" if done properly and properly insulated.

              https://www.google.com/search?q=sold...client=gws-wiz

              PS: There may be references to the relatively poor conductivity of common solder alloys, but they are far and above a mechanical joint (twisted wires or screw terminal) after there has been some time for corrosion to set in. Solder is almost universally used for electronic work, even when low signal levels with a corresponding very low needed noise levels are at play. Solder ROCKS for electrical and electronic joints. And it's conductivity is hardly ever even given a passing thought. IMHO, only a welded joint would be better.



              Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
              What I find amazing, is that for years and years solid wire was twisted and soldered. Then rubber tape and friction tape applied, 100's of thousands of houses and businesses were done that way? Then one day the NEC folks decided no more solder, can someone explain that to me? The solder was the hold the splice tight and provide some conductivity but the twisted wires did that.
              Paul A.
              SE Texas

              And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
              You will find that it has discrete steps.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post



                I don't much like the outlets etc with a screw to connect the wire, either. I now only use the ones where the screw clamps a plate down onto the wire. They seem to work very well, and don't try to unscrew the clamp as the ones held by looping the wire around a screw can.

                .
                Full agreement here and esp. with 12 gauge as it's more robust,,, experienced electricians are aware of this from the get-go and it is surprising at how much you can reef on those little screws without stripping them,,, the trick is to apply ALLOT to them so it overrides the wires ability to override the screws holding power,,, 14 gauge is cake but there's still room for error with the 12, so im in total agreement - when I see the plate system I know it eliminates the factor from that kinda loosening effect as so much cramming has to happen sometimes to get wires stuffed into their boxes,,,

                all this talk of it --- I hate the trade - i would hate to have to do it for a living.. I hate messing with wires....

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by boslab View Post
                  Another handy thing I was at a mates workshop, he builds machines, wago do a nice range of DIN rail connections as well, easier than a terminal screw missing a wire ( I prefer bootlace crimps myself) but nice to know
                  mark
                  What is a boot lace crimp? Edwin Dirnbeck

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
                    Was just thinking about poor Edwin,,, guys always getting enthused about something - tossing it out to the universe only to get it picked on,,, just hope he doesn't take it personal that's not what were trying to do,,,

                    it's just kinda like "hey guys look at this new wrench it's one size fits all" ----- :-( wha wahhh...
                    No problem for me. I actually do most of my wiring on 12 volt equipment ,ad on led lights and gages on 4 wheelers ,golf carts ,tractors,ect..It seems that when I replace a switch or fixture on any house wiring, I run in to poor workmanship.The boxes are NEVER big enough for the amount of wires that are crammed in. The boxes are NEVER attached solidly to a stud.Worst all, (MY OPINION ) ALL 110 VOLT OUTLETS SHOULD BE INSTALLED WITH THE GROUND PRONG UP.How many MASTER ELECTRICIANS WILL DARE TO DO THIS? In St Louis, all new subdivisions have the ground prongs down,because it looks more pleasing to the eye.Rant over. This has been a very interesting thread. I allmost didnt buy these new to me Wago connecters because I thought that they were some kind of weird Chinese knockoff. Edwin Dirnbeck

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
                      twist wires together that he can physically see with his own eyes and with his kliens - snip the ends off flush or close enough
                      Again - no further questions...
                      Yup, you have to clip the "mullet" off the branch. Very nice, JR


                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
                        Never heard of the "brand name" have used the stab in's in florescent lighting kits...

                        I had to check on u boob to see how the lever action worked and immediately found this guy --- watched half the vid and am totally with him --- your want your house to burn down - buy them up and use them asap...

                        https://youtu.be/sHYzpUvddOc
                        That guy does not know what he is talking about. They can and are used in commercial and industrial applications. I have never seen a rule that prohibits them. When I used to do lighting we used the wago wall nut version by the thousands, we bought them in bags of 5000. I cant remember one time where there was an issue outside of improper installation. No flickering lights, none of that stuff. We would have gotten service calls on them if we did. I have had service calls for wire but failures though.

                        The wall nuts are rated for 20A too. Not sure about the lever one but that’s what they are rated for. So yes you can put them on 20A circuits.

                        I think we paid about $.05 a piece for the 4 position wall nuts. They are cheaper than the lever type. That’s been a long time ago so the price certainly has gone up. I’ll take them over wire nuts any day.
                        Last edited by macona; 11-26-2021, 05:51 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Edwin Dirnbeck View Post

                          What is a boot lace crimp? Edwin Dirnbeck
                          Little tube of tinned metal you slip over braided wire to prevent stray strands and stop it mushing under the screw
                          mark
                          https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/conne...lace-ferrules/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Bootlace crimps work really well - here's the type of tool that you install them with: https://hitekasia.co.uk/hsc8-6-6-hex...6mm-1230-p.asp

                            The only problem comes when you try to figure out the colour coding system (the plastic collars are usually colour coded). Scroll down here for 3 systems: https://www.efixx.co.uk/Know%20How/ferrules - there are no doubt more.
                            All of the gear, no idea...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I get ferrules in US the from ferrulesdirect.com My work also get ferrules from them. Everything that has wire ends gets a ferrule now unless it is solid wire.

                              Funny story about ferrules, I ended up picking up a job being a maintenance tech at a place that makes tofu. First day the plant manager was taking me around, one of the other tech was on the ground working on a packaging machine replacing a prox sensor or something. I asked the manager where we keep ferrules for stuff like that. He was all like "we aint got time for stuff like that. we have to get this stuff back up fast." Just as he finishes saying that the tech starts putting ferrules on the wire ends.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by macona View Post

                                That guy does not know what he is talking about. They can and are used in commercial and industrial applications. I have never seen a rule that prohibits them. When I used to do lighting we used the wago wall nut version by the thousands, we bought them in bags of 5000. I cant remember one time where there was an issue outside of improper installation. No flickering lights, none of that stuff. We would have gotten service calls on them if we did. I have had service calls for wire but failures though.

                                The wall nuts are rated for 20A too. Not sure about the lever one but that’s what they are rated for. So yes you can put them on 20A circuits.

                                I think we paid about $.05 a piece for the 4 position wall nuts. They are cheaper than the lever type. That’s been a long time ago so the price certainly has gone up. I’ll take them over wire nuts any day.
                                S'all good --- but sounds like I Make Chips had a completely different experience,,,

                                I would be all for giving the electricians a break with the relentless work they have to do with their hands,,, it is a brutal trade for that, lots of focused effort and repetition takes it's toll, but there is stuff out there, you can use an adapter on your now tiny cordless to spin on wire nuts, still - the jamming things into a box and pulling home runs and on and on, it's a tough job day in and day out...

                                But i will reiterate --- a quality wire nut installed by an experienced electrician ---- 100% bombproof,

                                "stick em's or lever action"? sorry but you really have zero idea, same with the seasoned pro, ask how they could possibly say 100% and if their being honest with you they will have to say "I can't"

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