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Frozen knee...need help!!!

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  • #31
    I guess the reason that I was suggesting the crane from above is that you could *just*take the tension off. You really don't want to add any tension to the works, just take the weight off the gib so that you can make it move.

    I do agree, be patient. I would keep wetting it with Kroil. The rust will keep soaking it up and you want it to eventually make it down the full length of both sides of the gib so it can come loose. I would use a brass hammer and rap on the side of the knee (gently) all around the area that captures the gib to set up some vibration.

    I wouldn't hesitate to tap on the end of the gib....something will have to loosen it and jacking on the knee will only try to pop one side loose-- the side against the column. Moving the gib will eventually allow you to remove the gib which you are going to have to do. If you find you are peening the gib (no need to hit it that hard really), use a brass drift. In short, both sides of that gib are likely rusted in place and *both sides have to be loosened.

    I am glad to see your committed sense of patience, however. That is a neat toy and there is no sense wrecking something.

    good luck
    Paul Carpenter
    Mapleton, IL


    • #32
      If its anything like my fritz ..there is no tapered gib.

      One side of the knee just hooks over the dovetails on the column.
      the other side ...well its identical to the other .but hook part (gib if you like) this part bolts on and is slightly larger.

      undoing these bolts ..(if its like my machine ,that is ) would allow the whole knee to swing loose.

      In your case allow the whole knee to be prised loose.

      all the best.....mark


      • #33
        Originally posted by John Stevenson
        Bill read the post again.
        He's saying the wide part MAY be to the top and so jacking the knee up will wedge it harder.

        hello John. how is the weather in 'merry olde'?

        am i missing something here? the point i was attempting to make is that i think it would be strange for the wide part of it to be at the bottom. if i failed to make that clear, well, i guess that's why i am not married. apparently i do not communicate well sometimes.

        i was not suggesting that he attempt to 'jack' it but rather to have some means of holding the table, etc. when he does get the gib out, whichever way it might be. what i meant by 'lifting type tension' was a means to hold all of that up once he does get the gib out, and not to be actively pulling up on it. now that i look at it, i can see how someone might be confused by what i wrote.

        you are better at explaining this stuff than i am. [i guess that ain't much of a compliment considering my feeble abilities.]

        you gotta do what i mean and not what i say.

        please forgive me if i did not communicate that well.

        ........i dremel. therefore i am..........................


        • #34
          Guy! Thanks for taking so much time on this subject.
          I appreciate it!
          Not much progress today. Just letting the oil work mainly.
          The Kroil is really starting to "kreep".
          The dovetail/rusted area is 9" wide and 18" deep. A lot of rust.
          The dovetail on the knee is all one piece. I only wish it was a bolt on deal....that would have been easier.
          There is only one adjusting bolt for the gib. It is at the bottom facing up.
          I'm still just jacking it up a bit and releasing it. Basically rocking the knee a bit trying to help the oil run down.
          To remove this knee you have to lift it right up off the top of the dovetail.
          I have tools I don't even know I own...


          • #35
            Originally posted by torker
            To remove this knee you have to lift it right up off the top of the dovetail.
            wow so you have to have another 6 foot above the machine clearance to even lift it off ..thats thoughtful of the makers.
            do the dovetails go all the way up to the top where the ram is .....means also you would have to remove the spindle .

            all the best....mark


            • #36
              Originally posted by aboard_epsilon
              .....means also you would have to remove the spindle .

              all the best....mark
              Yes...nice huh?
              I'm still scratching my head trying to figure how to get the spindle out of it also.
              I have tools I don't even know I own...


              • #37
                "There is only one adjusting bolt for the gib. It is at the bottom facing up."

                Torker, this is very strange, i dont understand the mechanism, if its a wedge type gib adjuster there should be both a slack adjuster and a limit, and you jam the slack into the limit to lock the gib and keep it exactly were you want it, the only way i know of just getting by with one is if the gib wedge has a machined slot on the side for a single adjuster head to fit into, now you have a limit and a slack in the same adjuster however this is archaic in comparison to the other method because you always have to have a little free play just to be able to rotate the adjuster head in its cut out slot, this amounts to the gib losing tolerance in one direction and tightening in the other (like when table is raised or lowered) If its something other that what i discribed please let us know although you may not know till you get it apart! (could be a spring loaded gib i suppose? but that would be risky imho...) Just thinkin out loud, take some pics if you want as it seems theres plenty of interest in your machine! good luck and keep it soaking


                • #38
                  AK, I believe you are correct. The rest of the gibs on this machine are the adjuster on the fat end of the gib.
                  There are some kind of setscrews(2) or something in behind the dovetail also.
                  The knee must be raised to get at them as far as I can see.
                  The gib has a shallow 1/2" wide slot milled into it on the side opposite to the dovetail way. The oil is flowing freely throughout the slot now. It's the other side, the one that is rusted to the dovetail side that is the worse to get at.
                  I'm almost convinced that the dovetail side is starting to free up. I now have .001 movement right at the dovetail with moderate pressure from the jack. Before I had none.
                  There is absolutely no movement on the opposite side with no gib.
                  It'll's just being a little cranky.
                  Good news...I found some sliding plates under the X table that cover up the top bearing for the jack screw. Everything is in like new condition.
                  This thing has lots of cool features.
                  There are slotted head screws EVERYWHERE. They are all oiling holes! There isn't one of the screws that is buggered. They all loosen off easily and all where well oiled. Someone took good care of this machine at one time.
                  I'm fearing the worse for the spindle now.
                  The little reservoir at the top doesn't have a sealed lid.
                  There are oil lines running to all the bearings from the reservoir.
                  Being outside let water into the reservoir. You don't need a lot of imagination to guess what happened.
                  One of the feed tubes was lower than the rest.
                  The one for the rear spindle bearing(bushing?). Looks like any water went in this one.
                  I've been pouring Kroil into this tube. Rusted crap is just pouring out of the back of the bearing now. I have to free this up before I can get the spindle out...I think????
                  I have tools I don't even know I own...


                  • #39
                    Sometimes on mill knees if the gib is wide enough the knee is free to clear the dovetails once the gib is removed.
                    Same for the other slides, some do, some don't.

                    My Victoria will clear and just lift off after twisting but a Bridgy won't.

                    What I'm saying is you may not have to remove the spindle first.

                    Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.


                    • #40
                      Damn that really chaps my hide when people leave good machinery out in the elements, not even a tarp,,,,, I want to get a bumper sticker that says "never --- ever --- ever --- hurt a machine..."
                      If the thick end of your gib wedge is indeed at the bottom than the jack is the way to go, sorry bout freeking out but my machine is of very popular design and the exact oposite so if the gib was frozen to the base but free in the knee it would just self tighten with a jack, does your spindle even rotate? what kind of machine is this? you can always stone in the knee portion once disasembled but the base where the knee got "parked" is whats critical, hopefully not to much deviation there and maybe not a very popular working position although in your pic the knee screw looks about half way out,,, Soak the hell out of it, put your best speakers next to it and find a loud rock station, crank up the tunes and then go on a weeks vacation, if that dont work at least you had fun trying


                      • #41
                        John, I was hoping for that solution also but it isn't going to happen.
                        The gib and dovetail are 1 1/2" wide (or so).
                        The gib is 3/8" thick at the bottom and 3/16" thick at the top.
                        I still can't figure what the screws (or whatever they are) that are around back of the dovetail are for. I can't see them well enough in the current position of the knee.
                        There is also a funny hole drilled right beside the gib at the top. I've cleaned it out and it almost looks like someone was trying to shift some metal over against the gib with a round nose punch, similar to what we do with bearing caps on auto engines.
                        AK..This is an OHIO #2 Universal, made by the Oesterlein Machine Company.
                        Long since defunct.
                        The front part of the spindle (the nose) spins nicely now. Was a bit dry but is lubed up and should be ok.
                        It is a back geared machine so the main spindle is a two piece deal.
                        The rear part of the spindle turns independant of the front unless the front cog is engaged.
                        I'm having a devil of a time trying to fugure how it works because I can't turn the back part. Won't be able to take it apart until the rear spindle is freed either.
                        There are some bolts holding some gears on that have to come out.
                        Can't get at the back ones til it turns.
                        BTW...I fibbed about the other gibs having only one screw...I didn't look properly until this morning. There is a screw at each end just like on my 14X40 lathe.
                        That's why this gib for the knee is baffling. As was'd think it would be loose going one way and tight the other. The adjusting screw seems pretty sloppy now that it's been soaked with oil.
                        Baby steps, baby steps....(reminding myself NOT to get the Tiger torch out and a BFH)
                        I have tools I don't even know I own...


                        • #42
                          AK..also, I can't for the life of me figure why this machine was left outside either.
                          There is nothing broken on it but one chip out of a bevel gear tooth for the X powerfeed. The X table is smooth as silk...has a bit of backlash but no worse than my new mill/drill. The ram is so smooth it almost fell out when I was moving the machine across the floor on rollers.
                          The ways etc that I can see are in pretty darn good shape.
                          I'm still waiting to find what is wrong...there must be something bad.
                          Or maybe the rusted knee has always been the problem...who knows.
                          The old machinist who had this before I did was crippled and was pretty much screwed in the head after the car accident and stroke he suffered.
                          As far as I can tell he never did have this running.
                          I think family and friends got this old piece of "junk" for him to play with and keep him amused. He wasn't capable of much for the last 15 years. He only had this for the past two years.
                          It really is a shame.
                          In its day this was probably a top of the line machine. It's very well thought out and heavy duty. I'd have loved to run it when it was still in good shape.
                          I've owned or built a lot of pretty cool machines over the years but this one is the neatest one I've ever owned....too bad it don't worky!
                          I'm thinking I'll probably spend some coin to get it fixed up right.
                          To buy a new machine like this would be pretty pricey, even a decent used universal up here is pretty spendy.
                          Course I have to really check it out may have issues too serious to bother with but I don't think so.
                          I have tools I don't even know I own...


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by torker
                            The gib and dovetail are 1 1/2" wide (or so).
                            The gib is 3/8" thick at the bottom and 3/16" thick at the top.
                            I still can't figure what the screws (or whatever they are) that are around back of the dovetail are for.....
                            Hmm. I just had a thought that may be a complete shot in the dark,and could of course be completely wrong, but maybe the gib strip is held semi-captive by the screws? With the thick end of the gib at the bottom what's to stop it falling out under gravity as it wears or the knee moves?
                            Or another thought is that maybe the whole dovetail is the adjustable gib with a wear strip attached to it? The knee on my surface grinder is like this, it doesnt have a wear strip, but you undo 3 bolts and the dovetailed gib block comes away and then the knee will swing off the dovetail on the other side.



                            • #44
                              Peter, Sir John already mentioned the removable part of the good here. It's all one casting that slides right up out the top(after you remove the spindle...grrr)
                              The screw that holds the gib in has a shoulder that rides in a slot in the gib. This is how it pushes the gib up and far as I can tell anyway.
                              I have tools I don't even know I own...


                              • #45
                                Kroil and hillbilly 1....siezed spindle 0
                                Kroil and hillbilly 1...siezed knee 0
                                9:57 Mountain Time...after ten thousand (or so) times, rocking the big bull gear back and forth with a piece of oak...spindle breaks free!
                                11:02 Mountain Time....after 10 million times...rocking the knee back and forth and side to side..Kroil starts squirting up. Modified chizel on air hammer knocks out gib like nothing. Unbelievable...knee is still frozen on the other side. One more shot with the jack and "BANG"...knee lets loose!
                                Yipeeee!....Ooops...unknown to me...the slip joint in the driveshaft is frozen also. When knee releases it snaps the ears off the driveshaft yoke. No big deal...common type of U-joint.
                                One more thing is still frozen.
                                There is a bevel gear in behind the bevel gear for the jackscrew. Very hard to get at. The knee jackscrew was frozen after all. It moves enough that I though it was just because the knee was froze. Couldn't see the little bevel gear.
                                There may be hope after all! The spindle spins nicely but I still want to take it all apart.
                                I still have to lift the knee off as well but have to remove the spindle once I learn how.
                                There you go guys...find rusted junk...fix it!
                                I have tools I don't even know I own...