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  • Originally posted by wierdscience View Post

    Children NOT doing labor is a recent western developement and one I don't think we are better off for having. Who's in worse shape? The Paki kids, or the next generation of fat, lazy, gender studies grads we are churning out?

    See below for clarification...

    Click image for larger version

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    • Chart looks correct as my state has been rated best for quite some time. best for healthy not phat...

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      • There are plenty of 350 and 400 lb people waddling around most places. Lots of "Bubbas" and "Bubbettes". I see them.

        But don't get too excited about being in a "better" state.... the best I see on that map looks like about 1 out of 5 people in the obese category (20%).

        Originally posted by wierdscience View Post

        Children NOT doing labor is a recent western developement and one I don't think we are better off for having. Who's in worse shape? The Paki kids, or the next generation of fat, lazy, gender studies grads we are churning out?
        Well, the working kids probably cannot read, and may never learn. That was pretty common in the US some time ago. Not unknown now. I know a guy a couple years older than me. He technically can read, he can do street signs, but not the newspaper. I think he left school in one of the early grades, worked on the farm.

        Working and never learning to read or do any basic arithmetic basically makes sure that the person will never get anywhere, and will always be poor. And that they will likely be bamboozled and cheated by employers and others.

        Not something that it is good to condemn someone to.

        Worthless degrees? Yeah, there are a bunch. The demand that all sorts of folks "need a college degree" runs to that.

        Mind, I know of PHDs who are driving cabs. And there is nothing particularly wrong with that so long as they are not in debt that will take them 200 years to pay off. There's nothing wrong with a college education, other than the debt issue.

        The problem is not that there may be plumbers with a college degree, it is that someone might decide that it is required.... That's what has been going on..... some jobs require a "college degree" any degree, so long as it is from a real college or university..... even if the job does not really need it. (So far plumbing does not, but don't hold your breath) So the various colleges and universities obligingly provide degree programs pf every sort.

        It's not that the degree really prepares anyone for that job, the way an engineering degree does, for instance. The HR department is really looking for "ability to learn" and a certain sort of basic ability to communicate, etc. Things High School used to provide, but no longer does. So HR figures if you made it through college, you probably have what is needed. It's just a "stamp of approval", that lets HR hire by rule, without much thinking, there is nothing more to it.
        Last edited by J Tiers; 01-04-2022, 01:55 AM.
        CNC machines only go through the motions

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        • Uncle Herbert was a building contractor. He employed an older bricklayer as needed.
          This fellow would break bricks with his big trowel,not using the point but the flat edge which attached to the handle.
          Did not make any fuss about it, and like most tradesmen made it seem an almost effortless and natural part of his work.
          Regards David Powell

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          • A 'Philadelphia pattern' trowel has sharp corners and wil be easily damaged if used for cutting.

            The traditional 'London pattern' trowel had one curved edge for cutting bricks, and the blade's other edge was straight for picking up mortar. Later both side became curved to avoid the need to make both right and left handed trowels.

            Cheers

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            • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
              Worthless degrees? Yeah, there are a bunch. The demand that all sorts of folks "need a college degree" runs to that.

              Mind, I know of PHDs who are driving cabs. And there is nothing particularly wrong with that so long as they are not in debt that will take them 200 years to pay off. There's nothing wrong with a college education, other than the debt issue.

              The problem is not that there may be plumbers with a college degree, it is that someone might decide that it is required.... That's what has been going on..... some jobs require a "college degree" any degree, so long as it is from a real college or university..... even if the job does not really need it. (So far plumbing does not, but don't hold your breath) So the various colleges and universities obligingly provide degree programs pf every sort.

              It's not that the degree really prepares anyone for that job, the way an engineering degree does, for instance. The HR department is really looking for "ability to learn" and a certain sort of basic ability to communicate, etc. Things High School used to provide, but no longer does. So HR figures if you made it through college, you probably have what is needed. It's just a "stamp of approval", that lets HR hire by rule, without much thinking, there is nothing more to it.
              We hear a lot about the "military industrial complex" but not very much about the "education industrial complex". Higher education has as a whole, become addicted to cheap money. Evidence of this is in what the student loan program has become. It's stuck in a feedback loop and the loop is shrinking leaving parents and students wondering what happened once the bills come rolling in.

              https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandon...h=2c0736c47ecb

              There are an ever increasing number of articles pointing to the same thing, but higher education seems to be ignoring the writing on the wall.

              I just need one more tool,just one!

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              • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                Working and never learning to read or do any basic arithmetic basically makes sure that the person will never get anywhere, and will always be poor. And that they will likely be bamboozled and cheated by employers and others.
                Maybe. But I know a guy not too far from you who never learned to read or write. He signs his name with an X and can't read street signs (except to recognize signs by shape). Despite that, he owns an earth moving business that grosses millions every year. He went to the Barrett Jackson auto auction a few years back and bought some fancy Shelby Cobra as a birthday present for himself and paid cash. He's got more money than he knows what to do with... Because he started working in elementary school when his dad died and has worked pretty much everyday of his life for 12-18 hours a day.

                I agree that education is important and gives people a serious advantage over those less fortunate. But not having an education does not condemn one to "never get anywhere".


                Regarding child labor? Well I hear what Weirdscience is saying. I'm probably biased because I basically grew up working on my BIL's farm but I would suggest there is a big difference between teaching children and exploiting them. Child labor on a farm is just as much an education as sitting in a classroom - probably more so. I've been very successful in my chosen career and I attribute that success to the lessons I learned doing actual, productive work on the farm, not my degrees. The degrees got me in the door, but my real education on the farm is what made me successful. That said, my BIL cared about my safety and my future, same as he does now with his children. Very different than the kind of exploitation that was common here 200 years ago and is still common in other parts of the world.
                Last edited by Fasttrack; 01-04-2022, 09:41 AM.

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                • When things were" normal" I used to attend steam shows and similar events in all sorts of places in Ontario. I noticed that" Farm Children" of all sorts of ages were more Inquisitive about my models than " city Children", that they were generally more mechanically minded, and had much more respect , for people and property.
                  Their questions were more searching, and their ability to grasp concepts of equipment much greater,
                  When I got questions such as" Why does Dad use a diesel tractor rather than a steam engine I had to answer quickly, correctly and in language children could follow.
                  Assuming that is the result of their being" Child Labour" for careful and loving parents is not too great a step.
                  I am fully in favour of using child labour appropriately. My children are now grown and have children of their own, they all willingly help when necessary.
                  Regards David Powell

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                  • Originally posted by Fasttrack View Post
                    Regarding child labor? Well I hear what Weirdscience is saying. I'm probably biased because I basically grew up working on my BIL's farm but I would suggest there is a big difference between teaching children and exploiting them. Child labor on a farm is just as much an education as sitting in a classroom - probably more so. I've been very successful in my chosen career and I attribute that success to the lessons I learned doing actual, productive work on the farm, not my degrees. The degrees got me in the door, but my real education on the farm is what made me successful. That said, my BIL cared about my safety and my future, same as he does now with his children. Very different than the kind of exploitation that was common here 200 years ago and is still common in other parts of the world.
                    I probably should clarify. I don't condone abuse by any means, but I also see letting kids sit around and be idle as a form of abuse itself. I see too many young people that have zero work experience and even less work ethic entering the labor force. They never did anything at home, never helped dad work on the car, mow the grass or even wash dishes etc, etc.

                    The kids in the video I don't think were being abused or exploited, too many smiles and the younger kids weren't running machinery that I saw. Plus we are assuming they aren't related to the owner. Sure the kid on the plating setup needs better fitting gloves and a word to keep the water on the outside. The other question is if they weren't working what else would they be doing? Probably getting into or causing trouble, idle youngsters tend to do that.

                    I just need one more tool,just one!

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                    • There is a big difference between no education, and an expensive, debt-ridden education which does not help you pay off the debt. The idea that there may be a middle ground instead of extremes seems to be lost.

                      The remedy for expensive education is not NO education.

                      Originally posted by Fasttrack View Post

                      Maybe. But I know a guy not too far from you who never learned to read or write. He signs his name with an X and can't read street signs (except to recognize signs by shape). Despite that, he owns an earth moving business that grosses millions every year. ..........................
                      And the guy who owns the biggest steel company in India is a Dalit ("untouchable", below the bottom of Indian social order).

                      That's two.

                      How about the other billions of people who are NOT so lucky?

                      Sorry, but your example is just not enough to change anything..... lack of education in the basics is not a "yes, but". For those who are not a "one in ten million", it's a condemnation to remain poor (and exploited, since someone referenced that).

                      It's really expensive to be poor, and there is a lot of money to be made from the poor, actually. Those who make that money always oppose education and betterment for the poor.

                      CNC machines only go through the motions

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                        There are plenty of 350 and 400 lb people waddling around most places. Lots of "Bubbas" and "Bubbettes". I see them.

                        But don't get too excited about being in a "better" state.... the best I see on that map looks like about 1 out of 5 people in the obese category (20%).



                        .
                        It does not matter to you because your state is far worse --- and yeah 1 out of 5 is horrible --- but 1 out of 3 is a nightmare...

                        I don't mind parking way out in left field due to there being rows and rows of handi-cap parking spaces now that are right next to store entrances, I like to walk some anyways, but it's the traffic jams with the electric carts and also just trying to "get around" people who are blocking the isles and don't even realize it because they really do not know where their body starts and ends,,, those are the "blessed" because they can still for the most part "waddle" on their own,,,

                        I think it's horrible and do agree with weird in this respect , it starts in childhood, but what's really the eye opener is when I go out of state and have to go in someplace and im like OMFG it's far worse!!!

                        So you use the wrong word --- I would not actually call it "excitement" where I live --- just a lesser level of disgust in comparison to where you have to hang out...


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                        • Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post

                          It does not matter to you because your state is far worse --- and yeah 1 out of 5 is horrible --- but 1 out of 3 is a nightmare...

                          I don't mind parking way out in left field due to there being rows and rows of handi-cap parking spaces now that are right next to store entrances, I like to walk some anyways, but it's the traffic jams with the electric carts and also just trying to "get around" people who are blocking the isles and don't even realize it because they really do not know where their body starts and ends,,, those are the "blessed" because they can still for the most part "waddle" on their own,,,

                          I think it's horrible and do agree with weird in this respect , it starts in childhood, but what's really the eye opener is when I go out of state and have to go in someplace and im like OMFG it's far worse!!!

                          So you use the wrong word --- I would not actually call it "excitement" where I live --- just a lesser level of disgust in comparison to where you have to hang out...

                          Down where "Weird" lives, it's about half the population. And the problem exists everywhere that there is not a famine, not just in the US. But it's usually expressed as an exclusively US problem.

                          Most food is "designed" to make people fat these days. Just don't eat (and drink) that stuff, because it WILL make you fat (and likely diabetic also).

                          But it's not education that makes people fat.... many of the fattest are the least educated. Could be a reason for that.
                          CNC machines only go through the motions

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                            Down where "Weird" lives, it's about half the population. And the problem exists everywhere that there is not a famine, not just in the US. But it's usually expressed as an exclusively US problem.

                            Most food is "designed" to make people fat these days. Just don't eat (and drink) that stuff, because it WILL make you fat (and likely diabetic also).

                            But it's not education that makes people fat.... many of the fattest are the least educated. Could be a reason for that.
                            Yes all kinds of reasons and some of it is due to what we call "progress" no more Mom and Pops stores - all sold down the river for the major chains,,, kids used to grow up helping run them with their parents or helping to run the farm - now little farms are hard to come by, just mega industrial places that hire out to immigration...


                            I like what Fasttrack has to say about all this --- he's a great deal younger than us and has been part of the process were talking about that is lost,,, you can tell he's smart as a whip and has a strong work ethic... sad to say he's one rare bird anymore.... sure their are still allot of brilliant minds, but most of those do not know how to work with their hands --- they want to do everything with a screen...

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                            • The mom and pop stores sold the same bad stuff as the others back then. I know, I was in them.

                              It's the food type, not the food store.
                              CNC machines only go through the motions

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                              • Funny related story --- back when I was young one of the job opportunities to gain independence was having a paper route, in fact I think most of my brothers did and so did I, I bought my first car with paper route money,,, that and washing dishes at a chinese restaurant for $1.40 an hour (that's not a misprint)
                                My sister ended up marrying our paper boy lol there was paper boys everywhere...

                                It was hard work, you pedaled your ass off in rain sleet or snow, this was in michigan too and the smelly mitten as we used to call it can get bone chilling cold in the winter months,,,

                                Well I got an early lesson with the paper route on what it's like to become a "slacker" I was a great paper boy - never missed a beat - tip money especially from the old ladies who seen me pedaling around in the winter months - some inviting me in for a hot coco break,
                                but one day I looked outside and it was so freaking nasty and I was just not in the mood, I took the whole bundle of macomb daily's and tossed them into the creek behind our house, still bailed up and everything,,, they just sat their with ice growing around them,,,

                                the next day it was work as usual or so I thought --- till I got wrapped up in having to explain to half the people why they didn't get their paper --- I made up a fib and just ran with it, the route took me about an extra hour or so, the tip money dried up - no more hot coco either,,, took me weeks to recover even months with some and a few customers never fully came back around,,,

                                it was a priceless lesson --- and the thing I did not know is my Dad knew what happened and did not say a word, he was a wise man, he just let things work themselves out and watched it all unfold ---- then when it gradually ironed out for me he said, "I seen you dumped your papers in the creek awhile back" and I said "yeah Dad the weather was terrible" and then he just said "ill bet you'll never do that again" "No Dad I won't"






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