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OT: any steam heat wizards here?

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  • JRouche
    replied
    OT: any steam heat wizards here?

    Not me but two peeps. Both very busy with the weather. One cusion is looking for y
    techs..

    JR

    Oh. My cusion, From the Bronx. Owns a heating and boiler repar business. He lives in So Cal though , now. New York is stll frozen... I keep sayin. Lets go back?? Im from Jersey.

    Yeah Im from Jersey, my Dad left his life there, thoughts out here, in Jersey..JR

    Well I dont write stories very well..My Dad wrecked his car in 1977 and broke his neck, In New Jersey, JR










    Last edited by JRouche; 01-18-2022, 02:44 AM.

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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt View Post

    I never challenged your data and The date of the burner modification means nothing !
    lets make this real simple , and I will Quote you

    "Zero pressure. No water loss (per VXT logging fill meter). Firing continually. Cold radiators abound, a few riser lines get heat. Where are the BTUs going? "

    SO ! ----Steam Boiler with Water and continuous firing and no steam ...Do you know what that means ? --It means a lack of BTUs.Simple analysis ......and you asked TOO !

    So why all the discussion about pressure and manometers really means nothing...
    If you have steam , you have heat- BUT to have steam you have to be over 212 degrees ( simple analogy)
    You're so on the money and seeing what's important and what's not, except that you also assume something erroneous: I've said that some risers and rads got hot, and yet you inferred there was no steam!

    "So why all the discussion about pressure and manometers really means nothing..."

    Does it? I pointed out in the OP that no pressure likely meant low BTU transfer. In response I got a lot of tail chasing about the validity of my gauge & other details of steam systems. But it was obvious to me it was the key clue. I've just had a hard time believe in that that much gas or heat could simply be going up the flue, but that's an experience call, not logic & physics like the rest.


    Not to beat the dead horse further, but I must correct your statement about "modifying the burner". The burner was never modified by me or anyone else, it was installed as new equipment on the new boiler in 2012 & I have not touched it except for a professional maintenance since. It was George that just kept going on about the gas burner being modification to an old boiler.

    Last edited by gellfex; 01-18-2022, 01:54 AM.

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  • Rich Carlstedt
    replied
    Originally posted by gellfex View Post
    Rich, thank you for simply agreeing with one of my 2 hypothesis in that quote from post #1 based on the facts as I presented them, rather than ignoring what I said and chasing all sort of other parts of the system that can be eliminated by actually reading what I wrote. I don't see what problem you have with anything I wrote, despite your lecture. But even you are not reading closely, I've said several times that the new burner and boiler were installed together in 2012. I changed nothing since.

    If it's sooting up there's a cause, but I'm not going to find it in the steam temp, rad venting or return lines............................................. ....
    I never challenged your data and The date of the burner modification means nothing !
    lets make this real simple , and I will Quote you

    "Zero pressure. No water loss (per VXT logging fill meter). Firing continually. Cold radiators abound, a few riser lines get heat. Where are the BTUs going? "

    SO ! ----Steam Boiler with Water and continuous firing and no steam ...Do you know what that means ? --It means a lack of BTUs.Simple analysis ......and you asked TOO !

    So why all the discussion about pressure and manometers really means nothing...
    If you have steam , you have heat- BUT to have steam you have to be over 212 degrees ( simple analogy)
    College of Hard Knocks Lesson--- Pressure gauges can be OFF ...Thermometers have almost a 100 % reliability rating.. You choose ? does not take a rocket scientist !
    that's why I asked for temperature, but your book reading does not recommend that and you ignored a simple evaluation of your system

    Burners can have all sorts of issues, heck, you could have a bird stuck in your air intake system . I had a squirrel in one of mine and it played hell with combustion
    Your Gas regulator may be frozen or defective...smell your exhaust ..
    Rich


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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt View Post

    Gellfex, you are funny . Read what you said !
    You are burning bridges here
    Not all of us a dimwits.
    For two years (besides machining parts) I maintained three buildings with 100 and 200 (2) HP Steam Boilers (Kewanee ,Clayton) and their steam radiator systems
    And wmgeorge is no dummy either !!!
    Your problem is you expect folks to use "your troubleshooting methods" which work for you....but not everyone thinks like you !
    When someone comes into a problem for the first time , they want to go the way they think..Based on experience NOT on hearsay
    After many years of solving problems at work, I can say with authority (yeah) That when people ask for help , it's because they are looking at the wrong thing (cause)

    So you don't want to check temperature ..so be it !
    The simple answer is your BTU's are going up the chimney because you changed the burner and now have sooted up the heat transfer surface
    So yes , we are opinionated
    Rich
    Rich, thank you for simply agreeing with one of my 2 hypothesis in that quote from post #1 based on the facts as I presented them, rather than ignoring what I said and chasing all sort of other parts of the system that can be eliminated by actually reading what I wrote. I don't see what problem you have with anything I wrote, despite your lecture. But even you are not reading closely, I've said several times that the new burner and boiler were installed together in 2012. I changed nothing since.

    If it's sooting up there's a cause, but I'm not going to find it in the steam temp, rad venting or return lines. Even the tech said something that made no sense, that if the water was near the low mark it could run out of steam. But if the water gets low the LWCO adds water! Then I'd end up with actual excess water in the system when the condensate returned. Not the case. If the LWCO didn't add water for some reason, it would shut down the boiler.

    No one here's a dummy, that's what I love about the place. But we all have our own scopes of knowledge, and must be willing to admit the limits of them or double check assumptions with either the OP or Google, rather than doubling down on assumptions and non-relevant knowledge and insisting we're correct instead. Fred chimed in with expansion tanks, but at least he didn't double down on it!

    I've done a LOT of reading on these systems, I didn't just go directly here. I actually do know about what gauges are and aren't used, it's why I added the 1-3psi and manometer. I thought maybe someone here had deep experience with these, but I was wrong. Even your systems are quite a lot bigger, though I freely admit I don't know the actual operating differences other than controls.

    Again, thanks. This morning I asked the tech why he didn't analyze the combustion like he did last march. I have not heard back. I called another steam tech company on Friday, hopefully they can send someone to do the combustion test and clean the burner and boiler.

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  • Rich Carlstedt
    replied
    Originally posted by gellfex;n1980841
    I'm struggling .......................Zero pressure. No water loss....... Firing continually. Cold radiators abound, a few riser lines get heat. Where are the BTUs going?......................
    its firing continually and steam should EVENTUALLY reach them all!

    One theory is it might be condensing and not reaching the rads, but the heat HAS to go somewhere! Either up the stack, or into the water. You can't keep shoving BTUs into the boiler and they vanish! .......
    Gellfex, you are funny . Read what you said !
    You are burning bridges here
    Not all of us a dimwits.
    For two years (besides machining parts) I maintained three buildings with 100 and 200 (2) HP Steam Boilers (Kewanee ,Clayton) and their steam radiator systems
    And wmgeorge is no dummy either !!!
    Your problem is you expect folks to use "your troubleshooting methods" which work for you....but not everyone thinks like you !
    When someone comes into a problem for the first time , they want to go the way they think..Based on experience NOT on hearsay
    After many years of solving problems at work, I can say with authority (yeah) That when people ask for help , it's because they are looking at the wrong thing (cause)

    So you don't want to check temperature ..so be it !
    The simple answer is your BTU's are going up the chimney because you changed the burner and now have sooted up the heat transfer surface
    So yes , we are opinionated
    Rich
    Last edited by Rich Carlstedt; 01-17-2022, 09:16 PM.

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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Jerry he has managed to discard or discredit every suggestion made, from some smart and experienced people including you. My guess he has managed to tick off the local boiler people also with his attitude. Regardless of being competitors our business people went to lunch and socialized with one another. One of the discussion topics is customers..... I wish him luck.
    You mean suggestions like blow down the non-existent float LWCO that you insisted had to be there, or change out the dial gauge required by code and install a useless thermometer? I asked if there were any steam wizards here. The answer was no.

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  • wmgeorge
    replied
    Jerry he has managed to discard or discredit every suggestion made, from some smart and experienced people including you. My guess he has managed to tick off the local boiler people also with his attitude. Regardless of being competitors our business people went to lunch and socialized with one another. One of the discussion topics is customers.....

    Yes Jerry he has won first Place!!

    Something expressing this ought to be a sticky: "how to get good help over the internet".
    Last edited by wmgeorge; 01-17-2022, 08:33 PM.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Do you? Well, YES, actually. You DID and that took out an issue.

    See....... nobody knows what you have done , or not. So far, we knew you kayak, and own a building, apparently, and your son does mountain "stuff".. What you do or do not know, have, or have not done, etc, about, with or to the heating system in a building we have never seen and do not even know the size of, is a dark mystery at this end of the wires.

    And, recall........... you asked. It's up to YOU to "bring our eyes to your location".

    Oh, yeah...... There have been 81 posts as I write. What has been said in posts prior, tossed off in among other things, is unlikely to be remembered.

    It's good to put as much as possible in one post..."I have checked blah, blah... the system is blah blah.... The tech has done blah blah.... this is happening blah blah." After that we can ask.

    That assumes you would like informed help.

    If not, we'll just wait for the 10x speed youtube episode to find out what happened......😉

    Something expressing this ought to be a sticky: "how to get good help over the internet".....

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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    Your choice, but it's not a lack of belief...... or at least not in the usual way.

    It's the feeling that we have not heard all the information. And some of it has been apparently inconsistent. Maybe not actually inconsistent, but it strongly seemed that way.

    It's very helpful when someone says "I know <this thing> is OK because of <this reason>. Then a person can evaluate whether or not <this reason> is actually good proof that <this thing> is really OK.

    When someone says "I am sure the <whaterveritis> is perfect", it leaves open the question of whether that is a "fact", or a "belief". It does happen that someone comes back and says "It was the <whateveritis> that you suggested after all, I was sure that was OK."
    Getting into the blow by blow of everything ever done to the boiler is not practical in a thread like this. Do I really have to state that I regularly remove and clean the sight glass and make sure the valves are clear, rather than just say that 'the sight glass is fine'? The inconsistencies consist entirely between what I actually said and assumptions made.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by gellfex View Post

    ........................

    Thanks guys, but no progress can be made in this thread if you don't believe what I say.
    Your choice, but it's not a lack of belief...... or at least not in the usual way.

    It's the feeling that we have not heard all the information. And some of it has been apparently inconsistent. Maybe not actually inconsistent, but it strongly seemed that way.

    It's very helpful when someone says "I know <this thing> is OK because of <this reason>. Then a person can evaluate whether or not <this reason> is actually good proof that <this thing> is really OK.

    When someone says "I am sure the <whaterveritis> is perfect", it leaves open the question of whether that is a "fact", or a "belief". It does happen that someone comes back and says "It was the <whateveritis> that you suggested after all, I was sure that was OK."

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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by ImFred View Post
    Does i have an expansion tank? I know very little about boilers. A family member bought a house with gas fired boiler. Second year it wouldn't heat. 4 different company's looked at it and all said it needed to be replaced.

    I had a friend look at it and he drained the expansion tank. Problem solved. The tank was mounted up between the floor joist.
    Sorry Fred but that is for a completely different beast, a hydronic boiler for a hot water system.

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  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    And STILL no indication as to whether the radiators are hissing as they should................................
    Radiators hissing would be a sign that there was some pressure. No, radiators do not hiss. I have opened up the valve to a removed radiator, and sat there for 10 minutes with the boiler hot and firing waiting for anything to come out of it. Nada. The radiators that do get hot get hot very very slowly due to...... the lack of pressure.

    Thanks guys, but no progress can be made in this thread if you don't believe what I say.

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  • ImFred
    replied
    Does i have an expansion tank? I know very little about boilers. A family member bought a house with gas fired boiler. Second year it wouldn't heat. 4 different company's looked at it and all said it needed to be replaced.

    I had a friend look at it and he drained the expansion tank. Problem solved. The tank was mounted up between the floor joist.

    Leave a comment:


  • gellfex
    replied
    Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Since your boiler and system is so ancient is I am surprised it has a modern probe LWCO? Your the one that said the boiler had been updated with a new burner. Your getting so confused and my guess you have been dinking with the system and have it screwed up and blamed the Tech who recommended a two pipe return to prevent the water logging issues.

    Please post here when you get it fixed, because I am done wasting time on you and I am sure others are tired also.

    Yes Jerry I agree, old steam pipes that may of had air and no boiler treatment might have rust scaling off, but this guy knows it all, has the answers so I am washing my hands of him.
    The problem you're having is with reading. Post #7 I state '2012 boiler'. You edited that out to fit your narrative.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by gellfex View Post
    Like George, you filled in some data yourself. I never said 'no steam',.....................I'm not a slumlord. "At least 68 degrees between the hours of 6 am through 11 pm, and at least 65 degrees between the hours of 11 pm through 6 am." is state law.
    And STILL no indication as to whether the radiators are hissing as they should................................

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