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  • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

    Yes, the engineers may be wrong.... Why?

    Because THEY do NOT make the call.

    The truth of the matter is much more likely that the marketing folks demand the longest oil change interval possible, because oil changes are expensive and annoy the customer. They DEMAND that the engineers make the interval longer .
    It’s funny you bring this up about “marketing”. You have repeatedly spouted off numbers in their thread about tow ratings and payload about your Ranger like they are the gospel and looking down on people that never use the full capacity of their truck.

    So do you actually believe the numbers you state or do you think you may have been duped by so called “marketing”? I mean, I see no reason that marketing would want those “numbers” inflated to help sell vehicles.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Superbowl View Post

      Your wild ass theory about a marketing conspiracy against the engineers is ridiculous! Who looks to check the oil change interval before buying a new car????? The answer is no one on the planet. Wake me up when you have any actual test or historical data refuting newer long EOM recommendations on oil change intervals. Until then you guys are just making stuff up with no data to support your points. The guys here are usually are logical and can be counted on to think like an engineer. For some reason this topic seems to have attracted unsupported nonsense. Those that use outdated recommendations are just stuck in the past. Just because the car engines you grew up with needed more frequent changes doesn't mean modern engines and modern oils do. Where do you think those older recommendations of 3,000 miles, 5,000 miles, etc. came from??? They came from EOM engineers destructive testing of those older engines and oils. Now, where do you think these longer recommendations come from????
      I've worked as an engineer for decades. I've worked with marketing folks. You cannot tell me anything about them that I have not seen.

      Sure, the engineers tested the oils.. And yes, they had engines that did not fail when going the limit distance between changes. I've seen that show before in other places.

      What happens is that the engineers assess the result, find that 10k miles seemed to wear only a certain amount, and that say, 200k miles was predicted life. Then they recommended that 8000 miles on a change be the published limit to better guarantee the mileage-to-failure result.

      Marketing wanted that 10k miles, because YES customers DO look at that (fleet vehicle operators). So since the engineers did not find too many actual failures in the 10k case, they take that number and run with it.

      Your best option is to go 10 to 20% lower miles per change than the limit suggested, if you want the best engine life.

      I don;t know why you "turn red in the face and scream" about this.... but it's you choice.

      Originally posted by oxford View Post

      It’s funny you bring this up about “marketing”. You have repeatedly spouted off numbers in their thread about tow ratings and payload about your Ranger like they are the gospel and looking down on people that never use the full capacity of their truck.

      So do you actually believe the numbers you state or do you think you may have been duped by so called “marketing”? I mean, I see no reason that marketing would want those “numbers” inflated to help sell vehicles.
      I suppose that all the numbers are "inflated", in that yes the vehicle will do that, but it won't last as long as you would expect when doing it compared with somewhat lower loads. You would not want to load them that heavily every day. But they won't "break in half", it's not THAT kind of lie.

      I also suppose that the numbers are inflated about the same for all similar vehicles, meaning that GM and Ford inflate the numbers for pickups about the same amount. So they still form a basis for comparison.

      It's also probably that when you get to the F-250 / F350 level, the numbers are more consistent with reality. Those are not sold to "consumers" as much, and the folks buying them are not as easily impressed by inflated numbers as the usual "office bubba". The F-150 is the one most likely to be a "lie", since that is the big seller (reference Doozer's theory, which is probably close to the truth).

      BTW, it is a lie to say that I "look down on" folks who never put more than a few grocery bags in the bed of the truck. I do wonder why they bought a truck if they don't need to use it, but it's their business. (Again, see Doozer's theory)
      CNC machines only go through the motions.

      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
        What happens is that the engineers assess the result, find that 10k miles seemed to wear only a certain amount, and that say, 200k miles was predicted life. Then they recommended that 8000 miles on a change be the published limit to better guarantee the mileage-to-failure result.

        Marketing wanted that 10k miles, because YES customers DO look at that (fleet vehicle operators). So since the engineers did not find too many actual failures in the 10k case, they take that number and run with it.
        It looks like the engineers ultimately prevailed ...

        The general recommendation by Ford Motor Company for oil change intervals on their vehicles is around 7,500 miles or every six months, whichever comes first. This interval applies mainly to newer vehicles, and vehicles not driven in tough conditions. Older Ford vehicles using conventional oil will likely need an oil change every 3,000 miles or three months, whichever comes first.
        https://poweroilcenter.com/blogs/res...hange-interval

        Comment


        • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

          I've worked as an engineer for decades. I've worked with marketing folks. You cannot tell me anything about them that I have not seen.

          Sure, the engineers tested the oils.. And yes, they had engines that did not fail when going the limit distance between changes. I've seen that show before in other places.

          What happens is that the engineers assess the result, find that 10k miles seemed to wear only a certain amount, and that say, 200k miles was predicted life. Then they recommended that 8000 miles on a change be the published limit to better guarantee the mileage-to-failure result.

          Marketing wanted that 10k miles, because YES customers DO look at that (fleet vehicle operators). So since the engineers did not find too many actual failures in the 10k case, they take that number and run with it.

          Your best option is to go 10 to 20% lower miles per change than the limit suggested, if you want the best engine life.

          I don;t know why you "turn red in the face and scream" about this.... but it's you choice.



          I suppose that all the numbers are "inflated", in that yes the vehicle will do that, but it won't last as long as you would expect when doing it compared with somewhat lower loads. You would not want to load them that heavily every day. But they won't "break in half", it's not THAT kind of lie.

          I also suppose that the numbers are inflated about the same for all similar vehicles, meaning that GM and Ford inflate the numbers for pickups about the same amount. So they still form a basis for comparison.

          It's also probably that when you get to the F-250 / F350 level, the numbers are more consistent with reality. Those are not sold to "consumers" as much, and the folks buying them are not as easily impressed by inflated numbers as the usual "office bubba". The F-150 is the one most likely to be a "lie", since that is the big seller (reference Doozer's theory, which is probably close to the truth).

          BTW, it is a lie to say that I "look down on" folks who never put more than a few grocery bags in the bed of the truck. I do wonder why they bought a truck if they don't need to use it, but it's their business. (Again, see Doozer's theory)
          Your logic makes no sense. You seem to think fleet buyers are stupid and easily fooled by inflated oil change intervals but F250/F350 buyers are smart and not easily fooled. Please defend that! You say your best option is to go 10 to 20% lower on oil change intervals. Please provide the science behind those numbers, if not I must assume they are made up in your head. I could make up numbers too if I wished and say 10-20% is too low, if you want best engine life you must go 25-35% lower. However if I did that I would be blowing smoke too, as like you, I have no data to support that recommendation or any other recommendation. The only people that do have such data is EOM engineers and fleet managers who deal with hundreds/thousands of vehicles driving tens of millions of miles. I have never heard such fleet managers calling the EOM engineers recommendations BS. If they did, I am sure it would make the industry trade publications. Therefore, I will go with the EOM recommendations as it is a foolish waste of money to do other wise with no data to support your extra oil changes. My daily driver is a means to and end to get from here to there, not a loved one I want to shower money on. My fun car ('64 vette), that's a different story.

          Comment


          • Well, Superdude......

            The manual give 10k miles as the limit. The "Ford information" that Tomato linked to gives 7500 miles.

            That looks pretty close to what I said. only it's 25% lower than the limit given, so even more conservative than what I suggested.

            So much for your "smoke". Probably it will be coming out of your tailpipe at around 150k miles.

            Fleet vehicle folks fooled"? You only have to "fool" the beancounters, not the mechanics.

            Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post

            It looks like the engineers ultimately prevailed ...
            Heh.... we don't know what the original recommendation was ......... And that information is NOT GIVEN in the manual for the vehicle. I searched it repeatedly.

            What IS said is:

            "Your vehicle is equipped with the
            Intelligent Oil-Life Monitor system, which
            displays a message in the information
            display at the proper oil change interval.
            This interval may be up to one year or
            10,000 mi (16,000 km)."

            And:

            Hot Climate Oil Change Intervals
            Vehicles operating in the Middle East,
            North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa or
            locations with similar climates using an
            American Petroleum Institute (API)
            Certified for Gasoline Engines (Certification
            mark) oil of SM or SN quality, the normal
            oil change interval is 3,000 mi (4,800 km).
            If the available API SM or SN oils are not
            available, then the oil change interval is
            1,800 mi (2,900 km).

            So the engineers may have had to "lump it" and the marketers seem to have won as far as what is published. What Ford "whispers to the mechanics" may be different.
            Last edited by J Tiers; 03-03-2022, 01:53 PM.
            CNC machines only go through the motions.

            Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
            Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
            Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
            I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
            Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
              I've worked as an engineer for decades. I've worked with marketing folks. You cannot tell me anything about them that I have not seen.
              Surely you don't really mean this?
              Location: North Central Texas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                Well, Superdude......

                The manual give 10k miles as the limit. The "Ford information" that Tomato linked to gives 7500 miles.

                That looks pretty close to what I said. only it's 25% lower than the limit given, so even more conservative than what I suggested.

                So much for your "smoke". Probably it will be coming out of your tailpipe at around 150k miles.

                Fleet vehicle folks fooled"? You only have to "fool" the beancounters, not the mechanics.



                Heh.... we don't know what the original recommendation was ......... And that information is NOT GIVEN in the manual for the vehicle. I searched it repeatedly.

                What IS said is:

                "Your vehicle is equipped with the
                Intelligent Oil-Life Monitor system, which
                displays a message in the information
                display at the proper oil change interval.
                This interval may be up to one year or
                10,000 mi (16,000 km)."

                And:

                Hot Climate Oil Change Intervals
                Vehicles operating in the Middle East,
                North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa or
                locations with similar climates using an
                American Petroleum Institute (API)
                Certified for Gasoline Engines (Certification
                mark) oil of SM or SN quality, the normal
                oil change interval is 3,000 mi (4,800 km).
                If the available API SM or SN oils are not
                available, then the oil change interval is
                1,800 mi (2,900 km).

                So the engineers may have had to "lump it" and the marketers seem to have won as far as what is published. What Ford "whispers to the mechanics" may be different.
                Man you are too emotionally invested in this to think clearly and logically. First of all, Tomato's link https://poweroilcenter.com/blogs/res...ange-intervals is not a Ford EOM site. It is the site of a company that sells oil and repair products. Do you think they might have a vested interest in recommending early oil changes???? They say Ford generally recommends a 7,500 interval but this is not for any particular engine so it is silly to argue that in comparison to EOM recommendations for a specific engine as printed in the manual. Then you quote what I assume is the Ford engineer's recommendations for severe duty use. This confuses me. Are you for their severe duty recommendations but not for their general use recommendations??? I don't think Ford is whispering to any mechanics. Any mechanic who thinks that is hearing voices in their head.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                  I tend to change oil in the new truck at about 20% oil life left, per their "oil life estimation algorithm". I see no reason to run the oil life to the limit.
                  So based on the statement below you made on page 1, you like wasting money and being inefficient by not getting the full capacity out of oil change intervals?

                  Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                  Capacity that you do not use is a waste of money, and inefficient

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                    Well, Superdude......

                    The manual give 10k miles as the limit. The "Ford information" that Tomato linked to gives 7500 miles.

                    That looks pretty close to what I said. only it's 25% lower than the limit given, so even more conservative than what I suggested.
                    That 7,500 mile figure comes from Ford. It is a typical oil change interval across the model line, but it varies for individual models. It is not a recommendation to change oil 25% sooner.

                    Comment


                    • Let's face it, oil changes done without the aid of a professional oil sample analysis is only a guesstimate at best. Oil life monitors are not much better but better than what the general public can conjure up on their own. This procedure though is not a viable solution for all but the most anal diehard in regards to the daily driver.

                      Cummins is now allowing up to 80,000 mile oil drain intervals on ISX15 L engines in conjunction with info based on oil sample analysis recommendations and the use of approved lubricants
                      I believe either Volvo or Mack, could be both as they are now one and the same to a large extent, are endorsing 100,000 mile drain intervals with the same caveats.

                      With the older engine designs, fuels, and lubricants this was unheard of in the past. Engines held to tighter tolerances and the new lubes are now safely allowing what would have been blasphemy in the past.

                      I believe this applies to a large extent to new car and light trucks as well for much the same reason, when not subjected to extremes of service or conditions.
                      Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                      Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

                      Location: British Columbia

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post

                        That 7,500 mile figure comes from Ford. It is a typical oil change interval across the model line, but it varies for individual models. It is not a recommendation to change oil 25% sooner.
                        BUT, and I said this, and you IGNORED it......

                        The 7500 miles is NOT SHOWN IN THE MANUAL. I quoted you every bit of what was in the manual except the "trust the oil change indication" which the PDF search found about 10 times.

                        WHAT THE MANUAL SHOWS, is "not more than 10,000 IF the oil change indicator does not call for a change first."

                        And, then what you showed is EXACTLY 25% less than the 10,000 mile limit shown in the MANUAL FOR THE TRUCK.

                        Funny thing, that.... I suggested 20% less than the manual's limit, and there YOU show how FORD 100% agrees with me, and even goes farther.

                        So, you end up agreeing with me.............! Thanks for recognizing the truth.

                        That's just plain "CASE CLOSED" on you and Superbowl..... FORD agrees with me.
                        CNC machines only go through the motions.

                        Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                        Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                        Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                        I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                        Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                          BUT, and I said this, and you IGNORED it......

                          The 7500 miles is NOT SHOWN IN THE MANUAL. I quoted you every bit of what was in the manual except the "trust the oil change indication" which the PDF search found about 10 times.

                          WHAT THE MANUAL SHOWS, is "not more than 10,000 IF the oil change indicator does not call for a change first."

                          And, then what you showed is EXACTLY 25% less than the 10,000 mile limit shown in the MANUAL FOR THE TRUCK.

                          Funny thing, that.... I suggested 20% less than the manual's limit, and there YOU show how FORD 100% agrees with me, and even goes farther.

                          So, you end up agreeing with me.............! Thanks for recognizing the truth.

                          That's just plain "CASE CLOSED" on you and Superbowl..... FORD agrees with me.
                          You're comparing a specific model to an across-the-model-line typical figure, and concluding that Ford recommends oil change intervals 25% less than their recommended oil change interval.

                          Comment


                          • Just last week, the Odometer on my 95 Crown Vic
                            stopped working at 195123 miles. I used to change
                            the oil every 5000 miles, because it was just a little
                            bit brown. Far from being black, like the old V-8
                            engines were with carburetors at even 3000 miles.
                            I was quite regular every 5K with my changes.
                            Now I have to guess. The spedo works just fine.
                            I used to change the oil I guess 4 times a year
                            with my 5 day a week commute to work and
                            driving on the weekends. I suppose 4 times a year
                            will have to do. I check it every Saturday morning
                            along with the coolant and tire pressure.
                            Funny I have ANOTHER 95 Crown Vic in the garage
                            with only 38000 miles on it, almost brand new.
                            Would you believe the Odometer stopped on that one
                            too? On my 1953 International pickup truck, the
                            Odometer broke when it started to roll over 79999
                            to 80000. You could tell the gears were stripping
                            because the spedo needle started bouncing violently
                            until something inside finally broke. The spedo
                            continues to work fine, but the Odo is stuck at 79999.
                            Those odometer dials must get sticky on the shaft.
                            Plastic must get gooey and stick or something.
                            Not clockwork precision I guess.
                            I guess I will just have to look at the dipstick,
                            feel the oil between my fingers, smell it with my
                            nose, and taste it if it smells like gasoline just to be sure
                            it is time to change it. On the filters, instead of writing
                            the mileage with magic marker, I will write Winter, Spring,
                            Summer, or Fall. Seems about right. Am I the only guy
                            who has had Odometers fail ? ? ?

                            --Doozer
                            DZER

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post

                              You're comparing a specific model to an across-the-model-line typical figure, and concluding that Ford recommends oil change intervals 25% less than their recommended oil change interval.
                              Just give it up.

                              It's YOUR number that YOU found at FORD and waved in my face......

                              But now you are claiming that your number is not even applicable?

                              Well, then if your number is no good, why did you even post it?

                              Give it up. You're done.
                              CNC machines only go through the motions.

                              Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                              Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                              Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                              I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                              Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doozer View Post
                                Am I the only guy
                                who has had Odometers fail ? ? ?

                                --Doozer
                                I have not had an odometer fail since I started oiling them. One drop at each equinox. I learned it from an old Syrian mechanic.

                                Comment

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