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Engine that runs on hydrogen peroxide

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  • Engine that runs on hydrogen peroxide

    WEll... I need some money to make it reality. The concept is easy, My instrumentation background can make it reality. Any ideals on how to hook up with a company that can get THE GRANT our president talked of? The state of the union said he was going to invest in it. email me.. or post it.. Actually I have been experimenting with hydrogen peroxide rockets as a booster on my harley.. using the exhaust heat as a catalyst booster. Let them nitrous oxide freaks get outa my way.. I got a ten second burn to go. In the rockets.. all you need if hi test hydrogen peroxide and a pressure tank, and silver nitrate screen. NO MORE working parts except the valving. YOU can throttle this one.. unlike a jato...

  • #2
    I wish you luck.

    High percentage hydrogen peroxide is as nasty and unpredictable as you can get without being spontaneously explosive. It evolves water in the form of superheated steam and nacent oxygen (in lieu of O2).

    Nacent oxygen is a form far more active of oxygen than everyday O2 and it can ignite some flammible materials at room temperature without an ignition source.

    It's better to burn H2O2 with a fuel like alcohol. For one thing you'll get a a much higher specific output and a fuel as mild and stable as alcohol will act as an engine coolant.

    Next question is what are you going to use for an injection pump? You have to inject at a higher pressure than you engine chamber pressure. In the shuttle it's about 6000 PSI.

    The Nazis experimented with peroxide in their rocket plane. They called hydrogen peroxide "P stoff" and took excrutiating precautions with it as is seen on the "Wings" programs from time to time. Two tank trucks, two crews, two processes, two unique filler fittings, flushing with water before and after filling, separation of... Well, you get the picture.

    As I said, good luck.

    [This message has been edited by Forrest Addy (edited 02-11-2003).]

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    • #3
      I agree with Forrest, H2O2 is too volatile to consider for common use. The airforce had far too many accident with the x-15 to want to use ever again on anything. The hypergolic fuel that Forrest mentioned that is used on the shuttle is far safer but extremely toxic - so you figure it out, why don't they use Hydrogen Peroxide instead? Too damn dangerous - even lower concentrations (20%+) in water is bad.

      Stick with something safer like - nitroglycerin...

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      • #4
        Well... Rockets? for street cars... No.. Not rockets, You misread my intentions. Ha ha..
        Imagine that.. a 250 mph Yugo.. some teenage kid.. the lawsuits.. the lawsuits..
        H202 is a violatile mixture that degrades rapidly.. ya.. but at 45 cents a gallon instead of the 1.69 I paid today. by my HP calculations it will get approxmiately 1/2 the mileage thou.
        T-stoff.. yeah.. I read the article testing the german plane also, and the 260 mph racing go cart article, and the rocket bike, and the flying jet pack, and everything else I could find on the net.
        I got a booster rocket about ready for the next bike. Pull in the clutch, hit the button and wait on the cpu to stop the accell at the preset speed. What to do with the tanks thou? I ain't figured out that. Maybe a large tube frame?
        Ohh well.. time to load my truck with that highly flammable mixture called hi-test gasoline and drive through rush hour traffic to the NUCLEAR plant (terrorists?, guards who look at my large tattooed ass as a target? get my daily dose in containment) to work my ten hours today. Nothing scary about any of that? right? Did I mention what will happen to me in child support court if I DON'T GO? Ha ha..

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        • #5
          The peroxide was used for V1 catapults. It was thought to be the actual flight fuel, but it turned out that they were pre-fueled before delivery to the launcher.

          There was also the Walther engine for U-boats, that was supposed to use peroxide also, but I don't know the details. I am sure some sort of information or misinformation about it is available on the web.

          Seeing that peroxide isn't available pumped/dug out of the ground, it isn't a "primary" fuel, meaning that it is a byproduct or manufactured material. This means it is less available, with multiple dependencies that lower its usefulness as an alternate fuel.

          My truck is supposed to be able to run on E85, but there is just one pump in the whole city that has it, at a massive premium in cost. Same deal, manufactured material, low production/demand.

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          • #6
            Sorry if you're upset with us for pointing out the hazards, Gypsie, but higher concentrations of hydrogan peroxide is hazardous and when contained under pressure is damn hazardous.

            As the concentration goes up it takes less to cause it to decompose and the decomposition becomes more violent. There's been some nasty fires and explosions in the X plane program in the '50's attributed to mere turbulence in the oxidizer plumbing. I believe it was a hydrogen peroxide torpedo propellant explosion is what sunk the Kursk, the Russian sub August, 2000.

            We're just trying to keep you out of the Darwin awards. Think about it. One gallon of H2O2 jostling in a tank between your legs in traffic on a hot day. Compare the rewards of success to the cost of failure.

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            • #7
              Forrest, I ain't mad.. I just ain't gave up.. ha ha.. I am too damn stubborn for that.
              I was trying to make a point that everything we do each day is a little dangerous. I got all my fingers. Lots of the guys around me don't.
              Yeah.. H202 is a byproduct that must be distilled to be potent enough for what I want. BUT.. it is a renewable resource that GIVES oxygen and carbon dioxide as a byproduct.. not poisonous gases.
              IT Is a great ideal, maybe not justifyable yet, but soon.. I'd like to be on the ground floor myself. Poor old crazy Henry Ford had a ideal too. Ya ever read his biography? Or Nikola Tesla (my favorite)

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              • #8
                It would not give carbon dioxide and water unless you burn a hydrocarbon fuel with it.

                Fuel cells as they stand right now do that. they convert specific fuels to water and/or water and carbon dioxide. The problem with tem is they are extremely expensive and have high upkeep. The current leader in the field is Excelsis Fuel cell systems (Damler Benz / Ballard Fuel cell systems) - their Hydrogen cells produce over 5000 watts per square foot (or so I have been told).

                I am sure alternate energy systems are just sitting somewhere being reversed engineered for the last fifty years if leaked documents from Majestic 12 are legitimate. Not that I believe that the government would ever hide the truth from the peons...I mean the public.

                So one day, Iraq oil will only be used for tarring Canadian politicians and making plastics. And they laughed and laughed about how big business screwed them all along, and when they wanted to shoot the evil bastards - oops! The liberals had all our guns, knives, forks, sharp pointy sticks, and spit wads outlawed! What do you mean I have to do what Bill Gates says...

                [This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 02-12-2003).]

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                • #9
                  Yeah.. I seen some carbon dioxide, Not going any further. Something pretty interesting about the NASA experiments on kerosene injection into a hydrogen peroxide rocket engine thou. THE gains were magnificient. Anything that dampens the reaction is great. (known as knock additive in gasoline Hi test)
                  So, good thing I don't have any dynamite to play with, ya know Like I did as a apprentice electrician. HA hA.. The concrete would get into OUR underslab conduits and we would blast them out. Blasting cap on a fish tape, push it to the blockage, set it off. There was a active engine in the 1800's that ran on gunpowder, He had a powered glider so the story says. He got into history by frightening cows into not giving milk and pissing off the neighbors.
                  Maybe all you should get to know my future widow, I got some neat toys that might be for sale.. Ha ha.. (forrest still has me laughing)
                  Hell.. ain't nothing as much fun as the looks on peoples faces as you ride the white line between cars on a bike. (been doing that since the 70's) Kinda shock, Kinda envious. The rest of this life is FREE, I am going to enjoy it. Hope all you live a little too.
                  Good thing I got two computers, huh? See ya later today..

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                  • #10
                    One that runs on moonshine would be much more practical, especially in some sections of this state!

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                    • #11
                      There is quite a bit of research work going on in Europe to re-develop the steam car. VW have about 100 triple expansion reciprocating engined steam cars out on test with Joe Public at the moment. This uses a high temp diesel burning unit which runs at 900*C. One of the problems with the vehicle is the 'crank' time from switch on to drive away ~ currently its about 9-12 secs. Now where this might not be deemed a problem to you or me, it is cause for concern to the authorities who are saying its a safety issue.

                      The answer to this appears to be a small steam generator, which uses Hydrogen Peroxide and Pottasium Permanganate as a catalyst. A small quantity of hair bleach is allowed into contact with the KnO4 and...... whoosh! superheated steam at 370*C for your instant drive away!

                      The system used by the Komet 163, and the A4/V2 rocket was similar in that the hydrogen peroxide was used in conjunction with Potash as a steam generator to run the fuel feed pumps. On the V2 the steam turbine produced about 580Hp from 130 litres (33 US gallons) of H2O2, and pumped around 180Lb of liquid oxygen, and 160Lb of ethyl alcohol per second into the combustion chamber. The Walter H series rocket motors in the Komet 163 used a similar method to deliver the propellants to the combustion chamber; the latter versions of this engine (A.02's) even had a throttling arrangement to conserve fuel and extend the flight times.

                      Could it be that external combustion engines will be the way forward with ever tightening emissions standards? I for one have often thought that the steam engine will make a comeback; as the external combustion events can be inherrently more stable than in an internal combustion engine (which has a firing event which, typically at 3000 rpm, takes less than 5 millisecs for a 50% Mass Fraction Burn). This rapid burning is the cause of the production of high levels of NOx, and HC. These are then swept up in expensive rare element catalysts where the burn has to be perturbated across the chemically correct air to fuel ratio (stoichiometry level 1). With stable combustion, catalyst investment can be reduced, super insulation materials increase efficiencies, super condensors lower the water medium loading required..... I'm talking myself out of a job!!!

                      Go for it ibewgypsie! theres a world out there to conquer (your not Dubba Ya by any chance???)

                      RR

                      [This message has been edited by Ragarsed Raglan (edited 02-13-2003).]

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                      • #12
                        A long time ago Boeing made a missile called "Bomarc". The APU (accessorie power unit) took advantage of the instability of H2O2. It pumped the fuel into a decomposition chamber, which contained a catalyst, and the resulting high temp and press gases went thru a turbine. The turbine was geared down to drive the generator and the hydraulic pump. It is possible that with todays declassification of restricted data you could find a lot of info about the use of H2O2 int the old test reports and field use reports on the Bomarc APU. I don'y know who made it bet Boeing, in those days, typically subbed out their APU work. One common vendor was Air Research.

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