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  • #31
    Regardless of what You think Jerry the LiFePO batteries are the preferred long term storage batteries. I did the research and found that true, LA batteries are past history for solar, its the Deep cycle life. When you comparing Hydrogen remember they are going to make it, pressure store in tanks and then re-convert into electricity via a fuel cell, not simple not cheap. Losses in every step of the process.
    In deep cycle use lead acid is doing good to last 3 years... LifePO4 vs Lead-Acid - Lifeline Batteries
    Last edited by wmgeorge; 05-04-2022, 10:31 AM.
    Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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    • #32
      Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
      Regardless of what You think Jerry the LiFePO batteries are the preferred long term storage batteries. I did the research and found that true, LA batteries are past history for solar. When you comparing Hydrogen remember they are going to make it, pressure store in tanks and then re-convert into electricity via a fuel cell, not simple not cheap. Losses in every step of the process.
      What does "preferred" mean? WHO "prefers" them? For what usage?

      What are you willing to pay in order to buy the battery which will be "approved by the battery snobs"? Is it important to you do pay SEVEN TIMES THE PRICE to get the battery approved by the snobs?

      Do you think that is cost effective?

      It is not "what I think", not. "only my opinion". No, it is what the numbers say. The numbers do not lie, and the numbers are not a matter of opinion. (although these days it is fashionable to consider math and science to be a bunch of lies).

      Now, where your batteries might be worth the cost, is if you needed to charge them up, and then leave them to sit for months unused, with no charge input. Essentially, if you treated them like a sealed can of fuel to be set on the shelf.

      I will grant you that if your statements are correct, there would be charge left in them, and that you cannot do that with the L-A batteries.

      However, in a PV system, that is not what happens. Even the most cloudy day provides enough input from any reasonable PV array to offset the leakage of L-A batteries. The system is simply not required to store power long term without input.
      CNC machines only go through the motions

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      • #33
        Just one more and then off to do something on the first no rain but sunshine day in 2 weeks > Lead Acid vs. Lithium Batteries: What's Best For Solar? | Unbound Solar®
        Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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        • #34
          LOL....... THAT is a "very unbiased appraisal".......NOT.

          They assume, for no particular reason other than the manufacturer warranty period, that lead-acid batteries are useless and must be replaced in 3 years. That is not my experience in any way, and I have had PV/battery setup for 25 years. I am on the third set of batteries, just got them recently.

          Their 3 year life assumption is beyond laughable. It seems to have been used simply to make the system cost appear similar.

          My battery life is similar to what a friend finds. He has the exact same T-105 battery type I use, and he is 100% off-grid. He is on his fourth set, but in his case, he had one set go dead flat twice due to the screwup of folks he had staying at his place, which did cut their capacity. We each installed the systems at the same time, and both of us had less-than-perfect charge controllers for the first set of batteries, which overcharged the batteries somewhat.

          Then the costs..... They use 8 "crown" batteries, at a cost of nearly $3000. I use T-105, not perhaps approved by the snobs, but they are 225 AH each, and 8 of them would cost me about $1200, or half the cost of the fancy-pants batteries, for slightly higher capacity.

          The ACTUAL total cost to operate the T-105 would be $10,000 less than the "comparison" states, even if you assume a 5 to 7 year life, which is less than we find to be the case with good chargers and no screwups by visitors.

          That entire "comparison" is FAKE NEWS.
          CNC machines only go through the motions

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt View Post

            Wow that is some incredible statistics
            But at $1,200 for one battery ( takes four at 3.2V) it's a bit on the high side !

            https://www.ebay.com/itm/19426956284...4bd757e6720bf0

            Rich
            That listing is for a lot of 4 pcs. So $295 for 4.

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            • #36
              Won't run your house but I keep threatening to get a hydrogen generator to be rid of acetylene tanks for welding.
              Works fantastically on aluminum.
              Len

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              • #37
                Reading all this about PV system batteries makes me all itchy and antsy to make a system for my house.. For the just incase day when edison drops the load.

                I like the cost of the LA and if like Jerry says they can last to 15 years that would cover me. And if not pretty sure battery tech will have advanced significantly, like it has in the last 15 years. All very interesting. Now where is my hydrogen generator?? JR

                P/S.. Pretty sure the talk about towing teslas was a joke peeps.. JR

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JRouche View Post
                  ..........

                  I like the cost of the LA and if like Jerry says they can last to 15 years that would cover me......................
                  That is NOT everyday charge/discharge use. That is for backup service, in what is called "float service", where the battery is mostly held at the "float" voltage, fully charged, and has little charge/discharge activity. Typical for backup systems.

                  If you do "cycle" them regularly, you will get less life than 15 years. The actual will depend on the total cycles, and, more importantly, how deeply you cycle them. Just two times when he was away and someone else was there, who went away and left lights on, my friend's system (12V) was drawn down to where the lights would not work, about 7 volts. And the system sat there for a week in one case, and two in the other. That's low for too long. The batteries still worked after that, but had lost significant capacity due to the abuse. Luckily, they had been in service for probably half of expected life. If you avoid doing things like that, 7 years is about right.

                  My off-grid friend has gotten about 7 years from a set, average. If you figure on that, you will be closer. If you draw down to a low charge state on a regular basis, you may get less.

                  That three year life quoted is ridiculous, in my experience, and that of others. Even the manufacturer apparently warrants the batteries to last that long, so you have to figure they expect about double that.
                  Last edited by J Tiers; 05-04-2022, 01:31 PM.
                  CNC machines only go through the motions

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                  • #39
                    For users who USE their PV system everyday, deep cycled LA batteries will last on an average of 3 years. Then with those Lead Acid you get well Acid, hydrogen fumes which must be vented along with the sulfuric acid fumes, and weekly maintenance of those batteries. In addition the LA weighs 2/3 more. Everyone is switching to LiFePO4 and I wonder why? They can set for weeks at only 10 or 20% charge and not be damaged. Not just us battery snobs!!
                    Last edited by wmgeorge; 05-04-2022, 02:06 PM.
                    Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

                      That is NOT everyday charge/discharge use. That is for backup service, in what is called "float service", where the battery is mostly held at the "float" voltage, fully charged, and has little charge/discharge activity. Typical for backup systems.
                      That was my exact intentions. Float it till the edison boat sinks and I need an overnight (or couple days) worth of juice. JR

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bob Engelhardt View Post

                        That listing is for a lot of 4 pcs. So $295 for 4.
                        Yes Bob a lot of folks are doing that and building their own. I just chose a better route for me, the Renogy has a built in BMS and with the Blue Tooth I can check the charge level without getting out my digital. Its new Tech and as the prices continue to drop LA is going the way of the dinosaur. LiFePO4 does have some drawbacks but far and away its much better. Just need to have an open mind and see the future.
                        Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
                          For users who USE their PV system everyday, deep cycled LA batteries will last on an average of 3 years. Then with those Lead Acid you get well Acid, hydrogen fumes which must be vented along with the sulfuric acid fumes, and weekly maintenance of those batteries. In addition the LA weighs 2/3 more. Everyone is switching to LiFePO4 and I wonder why? They can set for weeks at only 10 or 20% charge and not be damaged. Not just us battery snobs!!
                          I use my PV system everyday. I have a ground level concrete, outdoor pad that would fit. All the other associated electronics (float, switches and inverter) is whats holding me back.

                          I do like the durability of the lifepo4 in that a large discharge wont affect them. JR

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                          • #43
                            From what I see this green electric revolution is dirtier than using oil, mainly because it is using oil, it’s like a law of conservation of fuels if you see what I mean, takes coal to make solar widgets what I read
                            hydrogen is nasty stuff when it goes bang (or squeak)
                            mark

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by boslab View Post
                              From what I see this green electric revolution is dirtier than using oil, mainly because it is using oil, it’s like a law of conservation of fuels if you see what I mean, takes coal to make solar widgets what I read
                              hydrogen is nasty stuff when it goes bang (or squeak)
                              mark
                              I think many are Not doing it for the Green effect, I am not. I am doing so I dont have to give edison my money. And now I can work in my shop machining and welding as much as I want.. My bill was 350-400 a mo. And the state and feds paid 45% of my system so yup. JR

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                              • #45
                                What I would do today, I would build my own. At $300 for 12.8 volts 100 Ah or I would go 48 volts for sure. Lots of 48 volt inverters / chargers out on the market, smaller wire size.
                                Last edited by wmgeorge; 05-04-2022, 04:15 PM.
                                Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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