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  • #46
    Originally posted by JRouche View Post

    I think many are Not doing it for the Green effect, I am not. I am doing so I dont have to give edison my money. And now I can work in my shop machining and welding as much as I want.. My bill was 350-400 a mo. And the state and feds paid 45% of my system so yup. JR
    When you say "State and feds", just who's money paid for your set up? My Children and yours?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by CalM View Post

      When you say "State and feds", just who's money paid for your set up? My Children and yours?
      Nope. Big oil power. Money had already been allocated. And even if your example held water yes, I would have still taken advantage of the program. Are you insinuating I should not have? LOL!!! JR

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by JRouche View Post

        Pretty common around here (so cal). I have a 7kw system and get a check from edison every year. I never have a bill and I always produce more than I use. JR
        Great. Maybe all you solar guys can supply enough to stop the chronic rolling blackouts in CA first.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by polaraligned View Post

          Great. Maybe all you solar guys can supply enough to stop the chronic rolling blackouts in CA first.
          No kidding. Its a f-in joke. Thats why I want some form of battery backup for when PGE and edison get all afraid again and shut us off. If they would maintain their equipment instead of pocketing the profits maybe there wouldn't be an issue. Who am I trying to kid, that will never happen. JR

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by JRouche View Post

            No kidding. Its a f-in joke. Thats why I want some form of battery backup for when PGE and edison get all afraid again and shut us off. If they would maintain their equipment instead of pocketing the profits maybe there wouldn't be an issue. Who am I trying to kid, that will never happen. JR
            Ain't no profit in maintaining equipment when you have a monopoly.
            Location: Jersey City NJ USA

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post
              For users who USE their PV system everyday, deep cycled LA batteries will last on an average of 3 years. Then with those Lead Acid you get well Acid, hydrogen fumes which must be vented along with the sulfuric acid fumes, and weekly maintenance of those batteries. In addition the LA weighs 2/3 more. Everyone is switching to LiFePO4 and I wonder why? They can set for weeks at only 10 or 20% charge and not be damaged. Not just us battery snobs!!
              Two people I know who are off-grid and have NO other source than solar or a genset, find that their LA batteries last at least twice as long as that so-called average. Both power a normal house with solar, including ordinary things like washing machines, microwave ovens, and forced air furnaces (gas fired).

              I say BS on the 3 years, and I have evidence, not some guff from the battery co that makes Li batteries I am not particularly interested in studies or info from folks with an agenda that benefits from battery replacing on a 3 year schedule. That schedule is not supported by actual use cases that I know about, people who have no other source of power, so why should I believe marketing hype? I KNOW it is not true. *

              People have also claimed that solar panels last 3 to 5 years, and used that utter BS to say solar is useless and a waste of money. I had panels that came from the old Carrizo plant (yes I have had solar THAT long), and they were fine when I had to replace them due to physical damage from a tree to the north of them falling.

              I wish I had them now, the new panels are probably more efficient in bright sun, but with any cloud cover, they drop to zero. Those old panels put out 30% to 50% with an overcast sky.

              "Everyone" is switching? To batteries that cost 5 to 7 times more? I doubt that. I expect sales are up, but it's not a "rout".

              With a good charger, "weekly servicing" is not required. Monthly maybe. Yes they take water. Gosh that cost will make up for the LI battery cost in mere days, won't it? That there water is expensive!

              If you never want to have to see a battery, or even know that there ARE batteries, well, the Li batteries are for you, I suppose. Off-grid comes with responsibilities. So does owning a gun, or a car. Some folks just can't handle that, I guess. They want the benefits with no responsibility at all... Kinda like living with your parents when you are 45yo.

              * One issue with many solar systems is the size of the battery bank. Ignorant system designers size the battery bank too small, and force a 60% or more daily discharge (to 40% remaining). Yes, that shortens life. In the extreme, maybe to 3 years.

              But a properly sized battery bank, that has the reserve capacity to handle a few days of low or no sun in winter, will not need to be cycled so deeply. And, the less deeply it is cycled daily, the longer any battery lasts.

              Every Li cell type I know about has cycle limits. So does every other type. Some Li cells are actually damaged by being full too much. The types used in portable computers are like that, they are best and most stable between maybe 50% and 60% full.
              CNC machines only go through the motions.

              Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
              Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
              Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
              I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
              Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

              Comment


              • #52
                Do some online research besides asking your friends and discover what the rest of world is using for PV battery storage.
                Lead acid is dead, new technology is taking over. Its about life cycle cost. LiFePO4 is warranted for 5 years and may last 8 to 10. LA 3 years in the same deep cycle usage.

                The Search Results: Lithium-ion vs lead-acid batteries – pv magazine International (pv-magazine.com)

                Lead-acid Vs lithium-ion batteries — Clean Energy Reviews ,

                Lead Acid vs LFP cost analysis | Cost Per KWH Battery Storage (powertechsystems.eu)

                and the Last I am going to Post on this > Lead Acid vs. LiFePO4 batteries for Solar PV storage | P Q R S
                Last edited by wmgeorge; 05-05-2022, 08:17 AM.
                Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

                Comment


                • #53
                  OK, we know you are never wrong.
                  CNC machines only go through the motions.

                  Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                  Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                  Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                  I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                  Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JRouche View Post

                    No kidding. Its a f-in joke. Thats why I want some form of battery backup for when PGE and edison get all afraid again and shut us off. If they would maintain their equipment instead of pocketing the profits maybe there wouldn't be an issue. Who am I trying to kid, that will never happen. JR
                    I thought PG & E went bankrupt ?
                    Maintaining poles will be on the bottom of the list
                    All the Claimants come first

                    Rich
                    Green Bay, WI

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      FWIW
                      we have an off-grid PV system powering our summer cottage. It’s in a small community (~120 cottages) on an island. About 1/2 have PV systems now. AFAIK all of them use lead acid batteries. New installations also use lead acid. My guess is that the newer technology batteries are not used due to a combination of “wait and see” conservatism and down-right-yankee-cheapness.

                      also
                      the rule of thumb is that batteries last 5-10 years, so 7 is a good middle of the range guesstimate.

                      And weekly topups with distilled water are part of our routines…

                      frank


                      Comment


                      • #56
                        My system is just a backup and I chose LiFePO4 because of the long life and no Maintenace. I am a old Air Force aircraft electrician I know the proper way to maintain LA batteries. A lot of folks are not aware of LiFePO4 and will not consider because of the higher up front cost and that is for them to decide.

                        When I am off to the big shop in the Sky I know my wife can use this and all she needs to do is dust off the ground mounted panels.
                        With the modern (yes I know,,, new) inverter / chargers on the market this is going to be a turn key system for anyone.
                        Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt View Post

                          I thought PG & E went bankrupt ?
                          Maintaining poles will be on the bottom of the list
                          All the Claimants come first

                          Rich
                          For the life of me I don't know why those Lines are not underground? We had the high wind Derecho here 3 years ago and the areas with underground had power, we were out 4 days.
                          Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by wmgeorge View Post

                            For the life of me I don't know why those Lines are not underground? We had the high wind Derecho here 3 years ago and the areas with underground had power, we were out 4 days.
                            That Sir is an easy one. It all circles back to the Buck. We are all underground here but they still shut us down just cause they can. Then they got some heat from someone (gov) and they are a lil more discriminative now.

                            When the northridge earthquake hit us back in the day we were out of juice for two weeks. That was just the tip of the ice burg. Cause the interior walls were all cracked up. That was a long six months. JR

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I'm still holding out hope for so-called "salt water" batteries to become commercially viable for stationary applications. There was a company called Aquion Energy that pioneered it, but they made some dumb decisions and Li-ion batteries rapidly went down in cost, so they went bankrupt.
                              Location: Northern WI

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I have had some SLA batteries last as long as 15-20 years, although not used very often. I paid about $25 for some 12V 12 A-h batteries, which is about $0.17/W-h. Of course because of Peurkert you only get about half that if you run them at 1C (12 amps), and you should never discharge below about 80%.

                                Walmart has 100 A-h (1200 W-h) deep cycle SLAs for about $180, which is $0.15/W-h.
                                https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mighty-Ma...-48V/179446910

                                They also sell 200 A-h (2400 W-h) LiFePO4 batteries for $730, which is about $0.30/W-h
                                https://www.walmart.com/ip/seort/224999143

                                For most purposes, it seems well worth the higher cost, especially if used for high current drain applications. But for something like a tractor, where weight is desirable, the SLA may be the best choice. Also they may be better for cold temperatures, and lead is much more easily recycled. I found a price of $0.33/lb for lead-acid so the 64 lb Walmart battery will fetch about $20.

                                Non-SLA batteries are about half the cost of SLA, A 109 A-h deep cycle battery can be bought for about $94:
                                https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...7?athbdg=L1200
                                http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
                                Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
                                USA Maryland 21030

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