wow! i can only dream,,like new hardinge HLV

[HWooldridge]

Good article from "Live Steam" - thanks, 'thistle'. Makes me feel better about my 1946 Sheldon.

I worked for a billionaire - close beside him, every day for two years - before he sold the company and retired at 80. He might still be alive but I don't know. At any rate, he was not happier than anyone else. He was secure from the standpoint of being able to acquire almost any material thing but he still contracted skin cancer. The difference was that treatment wasn't an issue since he could go to MD Anderson or the Mayo without regard for the money.

He paid all his employees quite well but demanded a lot - both in time and dedication. I could tell a lot of stories but one that has stuck with me was when our quality manager wanted to take a weekend (that's right - Saturday and Sunday) to see his daughter get married. The company owner told him that he needed to get his priorities straight and work came before personal life. Needless to say, the QA guy went to the wedding, but he was "tainted" from then on and left a few months thereafter.

The boss didn't have a personal life and had essentially divorced himself from three grown children and his ex-wife. At 75, he got a 28 year old woman pregnant and then paid her $300K to abort the baby. I could tell more but won't waste the band width. After I had worked for him a few months, I lost the desire to make a lot of money. I don't put Bill Gates in the same classification but it occurs to me that big money seems to warp people to a degree.

[thistle]

25k

i wonder if they gave a free scotchbright treatment for that ?

[BobWarfield]

And why is it you only hear that from people who aren't wealthy?

Because unless you are really wealthy, you never believe you are wealthy, while everyone around you always assumes you are. All those numbers the government uses to determine who falls in which class are ridiculously low if you are living somewhere with a high cost of living. Truth is, wealth is a relative measure that is largely a state of mind and a degree of freedom. If you have to work hard to maintain your lifestyle, you aren't really wealthy. So, you either have to make a lot more or learn to live with a lot less. Either one works, BTW.

Now did anyone notice what the Hardinge lathe and Deckel mill finally sold for? Over $25K for the lathe?!??

It was a real beauty, but man was it expensive in the end. I think the Deckel mill, by comparison only, was a bargain, having sold for $8200. Whatever we may think of those prices, this JPL Engineer knew how to set up a nice shop. I wonder if he ever got to play with it much?

I've read stories of similar shops in people's garages that are filled with modern Haas VMC's and other goodies. Also quite interesting. Sometimes these guys are building really cool stuff and other times you just wonder. Personally, I just have to play with the toys, so they tend to show wear pretty quickly around my place.

Best,

BW

[DR]

Hey, would you guys stop this nonsense about not wanting to be wealthy.

And why is it you only hear that from people who aren't wealthy?

[Wareagle]

My wife's grandparents are in their 90's. Very active, involved, and always travelling around the world. They made a trip to the Amazon earlier this year. I think they are planning a trip to Africa for the fall.

If I make it to that age, I hope that I am half as active as they are!

[wierdscience]

Yup,to many times I have seen people just sit around after they retire and more often than not they don't live long.While on the otherhand I know quite a few people who are well into the're 80's that are still very active in the're daily lives doing whatever they please in terms of work.

My grandfather lived to be 97,he mowed his own lawn,chopped brush out of the fence rows and pulled grain wagons out of the field up until six months before he died.He had only quit driving the year before that.His mind was still sharp as a tack and we believe the only reason he died then was because grandma had died the year before and after having been married for 65 years it was more than he could take losing her,she was his anchor in life.

If we are only so blessed.

[Wareagle]

wierdscience, to carry this one step further, people think that being rich means you don't have to work. Actually, that logic is false; your full time job then becomes managing the fortune and keeping everyone else from stripping it away (like the taxman, those unknown relatives, scammers, etc.).

All I want to do is make a comfortable living and have an enjoyable retirement. They can keep those millions for themselves, I'm fine without it!

[wierdscience]

You know, I am glad that I am not Bill Gates, or have an enormous bank account. Those guys can have anything they want, and anytime they want. They don't have to plan, and work, and save to get what they want. They just do it, no challenge. For me, a lot of the excitement lies in working towards a goal. I guess less money equals more satisfaction when you are able to get something.

Now, if I were a Bill Gates, then I'd have one heck of a shop for sure, but then what? Somehow it doesn't seem like it would be the same.

BobWarfield hit the nail on the head regarding time; enjoy it while you have it! There is no amount of money that can buy back yesterday!

Be glad your not rich,my boss isn't rich in Gates terms,but he is well off.Many people treat him like dirt simply because he has money.Everybody has the're hand out or feel he owes them something.The attitude persists that "he can afford it".He originally setup the shop to be a self-supporting hobby to stay busy during his "retirement" years,but everybody thinks he is getting rich,if they only knew that the shop barely makes money and the taxes go up every year along with the light bill.

I find the folks I have met who have railed against the "fat cats" and the "rich" have turned out to be the biggest thieves.There are people in my town who are very wealthy,the local gossip and scuttlebut has them being evil heartless bastards,but in reality they are the ones who top the list of charitable donors when people are in need.

No sir,I would not want to be rich,or if I ever was I wouldn't tell anybody or show it off.I used to wonder why certain very wealthy people assume lives of poverty,now I know.

[Wareagle]

When I see something like that it makes me wonder what it is like to be Bill Gates

You know, I am glad that I am not Bill Gates, or have an enormous bank account. Those guys can have anything they want, and anytime they want. They don't have to plan, and work, and save to get what they want. They just do it, no challenge. For me, a lot of the excitement lies in working towards a goal. I guess less money equals more satisfaction when you are able to get something.

Now, if I were a Bill Gates, then I'd have one heck of a shop for sure, but then what? Somehow it doesn't seem like it would be the same.

BobWarfield hit the nail on the head regarding time; enjoy it while you have it! There is no amount of money that can buy back yesterday!

[sparker]

I have two of these but older models at my job. the chuck mounting is horrible, it is basically a locating pin with a keyway. and yes they do have a tapered spindle.

[thistle]

yes, thats awall of text there, i just copied and pasted thatas it came from the site.

[DR]

Anybody else notice this Hardinge doesn't have the usual taper nose on the spindle? It appears to be a "D" type mount, probably D3 or 4. Check the picture showing the chuck and spindle.

The seller's verbage mentions taper mount, but that's obviously copied directly out of Hardinge literature and doesn't apply to this machine.

I wonder if that was a special, or maybe they offered that as an option on the later models. Either way, it's about time. The Hardinge taper nose is awful.

[Evan]

I don't read anything that long with no paragraphs. It makes me dizzy.

[Cecil Walker]

Thanks for posting that Thistle, a very enjoyable read, especially since i agree with almost every statement.

[thistle]

On top of all that, to save cost, the headstock was somewhatminitaurized - the spindle is quite short and the gearing is rathersmall. I have known several owners of the newer imported lathes whowere disappointed with their machines because of problems with theheadstock drive.Generally speaking - if you are not doing a time and motion study ofpart production you don't need a gear drive headstock on your lathe.The South Bend back gears do their job when heavy cuts are needed,otherwise they do not turn with the spindle causing wear and heat buildup. Modern flat belts do not slip, I have seen a thirteen inch lathealmost stall a three horsepower motor without the belt slipping.A note on speed - Most modern lathes are capable of turning way toofast. When I was a young, hot apprentice I wanted to have my lathe turnfast. Yes, I cut a lot of metal in a hurry, but I was frequently at thegrinder sharpening my burned out tools.When they say to run a chucking reamer at half the speed for drillingthey mean half the proper speed for drilling. I could get away withdrilling too fast, but I never got away with reaming too fast. Mybosses didn't care if I learned the hard way with turning tools but theysure showed displeasure at my turning the ends of expensive reamers darkblue.Point here, Spindle speeds over 900 rpm are for Star Trek. I am oldenough to admit that I am no Captain Kirk. I turn slowly and I turncarefully.The cult lathes - Many hobbyists and even shop owners pay large sums ofmoney for the Hardinge HLV-H and the Monarch 10 Inch model EE lathes.These are what I call trophy machines. These machines came out in theearly 1050's when there was a lot of experimentation with electromechanical devices. Government and private industry research anddevelopment accounts financed them and most of the work done on them wasa cross between watch making and fine istrument work. Their highspindle speeds served well on aluminum and magnesium and they were andare very good at cutting fine threads. I have logged many hours onthese machines since they were very common at the Bureau of Standardsshop and at other shops I have worked in.Frankly I think they are impractical. The Monarch Model EE should havehad a 13 inch swing and a foot longer between centers. The lathe sure ispowerful enough to be a 13 inch and it is way too short. The tailstockhas only a No.2 Morse taper in its spindle, consequently the machine's 5horsepower isn't available for drilling and the lathe doesn't likeknurling close to the tailstick any better than a 10 Inch South Benddoes.The HLV-H. We apprentices soom came to the conclusion that if the workcan fit in a 5C collet then it is all right to put it on the Hardinge,otherwise go find a Pratt & Whitney.The Hardinge lathe is one of the most beautiful lathes ever made. Eventhe Swiss and Germans buy them. Sadly to say they are one of the mostclumsy things ever called a lathe. The full width carriage doesn'tallow the tailstock to come close enough to the spindle for short, smalldiameter work. If you have to support a short, skinny piece with acenter, you have to extend the tailstock spindle way too far just to getsome carriage travel for the turning cut. Wait a minute - aren't youusing the Hardinge for small, short work? Oh, well, if you need atailstock center, go find a Monarch EE or an old Pratt & Whitney. Bythe way, when I started my apprentceship, the NBS shop had just got allnew Hardinge lathes because they replaced all their 10 Inch South Bends.Even the journeymen were just learning the Hardinge lathes.The Hardinge is almost useless with a four jaw chuck. To get the spindleto run slow enough to cut steel, you have to run the motor in slowspeed, there are no back gears. Anything like a heavy cut causes themotor to stall. So much for turning steam engine flywheels andcylinders.Both the Monarch and the Hardinge run normally with their end gears andlead screws disconnected, their feed mechanisms are drivenindependently. This allows the lathes to turn at fantastic speeds -which are impressive but useless. The chips coming off brass make apainfully hot shower, aluminum wads up its chips almost immediately andforces you to stop the machine to clear them and you just can't cutsteel that fast even with carbide.The lathes don't like it either I have seen HLV-H headstock bearingsfail and they failed on a lathe that wasn't often used by apprentices.Am I ever glad, we got the blame for enough mischief in that shopanyway.If you plan to do a lot of thread cutting on fine work, the Monarch andthe Hardinge are worth the investment. Both of them are the best threadcutting lathes I have ever used. They have setable stops and quickreversing features so that threads can be cut right up to shoulders andinto blind holes without a problem. For collet work these lathes can'tbe beat and, of course they are more accurately aligned than any latheneeds to be. For work in a collet or a pot chuck, no lathe is moreconvenient than the Hardinge.Both of these machines were popular in industry because they are able tomake super accurate complicated parts within their range of operation insmall to medium lot production runs. This is not what hobbyists do.My advice to the hobbyist is to talk to a reputable used machine tooldealer. Don't get the idea that he is your adversary, just tell himright out that you want a good used lathe and work with him. He wantsyou to be satisfied and what you pay for a good machine tool will bereturned many times in satisfying operation. I have run my 11 InchSouth Bend since 1966 and the machine was new in 1936. any cost of themachine by now has paled to insignificance. That machine has become alifelong friend.Don't get scard by stories of worn out old machines, there are many usedmachines that are in first class shape and the price of manual machinesis way down due to the new CNC machines. Frankly I won't buy a new lathefrom anybody because of all the really nice machines out there rightnow. They are really a good value and they come with most of the chucksand tooling that you have to order extra with a new machine.Most used machine tool dealers belong to the Machinery Dealers NationalAsociatioon (MDNA) they have a thirty day return policy, if the machineisn't right they will take it back. See if the new import dealers offerthat kind of back up - most don't.Next time around, I'll jump on the subject of the machine shop's mostugly necessary evil, the milling machine.

Jim Kizale