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wow! i can only dream,,like new hardinge HLV

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  • thistle
    replied
    here is an article on SBs,Hardinges and 10 ees that is rather relavant..

    from livesteaming

    http://www.livesteaming.com/Choosing%20a%20lathe.htm

    Tech Talk Article
    I just found Livesteaming and read the articles about finding a newlathe or mill---and I wish to make a few comments.I have run lathes since I was thirteen years old and I apprenticed atthe National Bureau of Standards to the trade of Scientific InstrumentMaker. Of all the machine tools I have run, the Lathe and its cousin,the horizontal boring mill are by far my favorite. I will comment onlyon the smaller size lathes for this article.In the previous articles there was only slight mention of the South BendLathe and one of the authors passed them off as probably being old andtherefore sloppy. This is not necessarily the case. I have two SouthBend lathes, one is a 1955 model "A" Nine Inch bench lathe and the otheris an Eleven Inch South Bend made in 1936. Both machines turn outrevenue work in my shop and neither has any trouble holding size orrunning dependably.Of course the South Bend lathes won't compete with our high speed Lodgeand Shipley lathes, but the South Bend machines are assigned to workmore like that done by hobbyists and we take good care of all of ourmachines.If someone wants a very good lathe for model making or general machineshop work, I would heartily recommend three of South Bend's most popularlathes,the Nine Inch model "A", the Ten Inch (1 1/16" collet) or theThirteen Inch lathe.The Nine Inch - Never underestimate the South Bend 9" Lathe. Yes, itwas their economy model and it is small, but its record of accurate anddependable performance on small work speaks for itself. I have visitedinstrument shops where they had many little 9" South Bend lathes makingsmall brass parts and doing it for years. The machine is easy to run,quiet and invariably turns a very good finish. It can pull a surprisingcut in back gears and is an excellent screw cutter. Since a majority ofwork on small steam engines is very small, don't pass one up if it is ingood shape even if you already have a larger lathe.Don't be concerned that the 9" South Bend is a light machine. When theyare in good condition they are definitely not prone to chatter. Manymachinists complain when the tool and the machine vibrate during a cut,usually the fault is in the cutting tool but it is easier to blame amachine, especially a small one. In my experience I have heard many 20and 25 inch heavy duty American built lathes get up a miserable howl andin every case the cause has been either the cutting tool or the set up.No, the 1/2" collet capacity of the 9" lathe won't gomp down on a hogleg, but I have found that the little 3C collets make small work morefun. If most of your collet work is less than 1/2" in diameter thenthis is your lathe. By the way, Hardinge stocks the 3C collet in manysizes, round and hex.The Ten Inch - This is South Bend's tool and instrument maker's lathe.It is and has always been one of the best lathes in the business. Thenewer models (1960's and later) have an extended thread cutting rangeand of course, the fine feeds associated with the extended range.Despite the machine's small size it is a true industrial machine tool.It is the workhorse of the research and development shops inuniversities and industry. The back gears give this lathe more turningeffort than it really ought to have, while the flat belt drivegives it all the speed it actually needs.In all aspects the 10" South Bend lathe compares exceptionally well withthe Hardinge HLV-H lathe. This may sound outlandish, but I haveconsiderably more than a thousand hours logged on each of these lathesand I find the South Bend machine to be a bit more versatile in a widerange of small lathe work. More on this later.The 10" South Bend uses the 5C collet and swings a pretty big chuck forits size. The machine has a nice large faceplate and the back gearedslow speeds make for safe faceplate work. All South Bend lathes,especially the Tool Room models have very good lead screws so they canbe depended upon for chasing precision threads. The overall design isclean and open and the half nut lever is easy to work, making threadcutting easy. It seems to be my fate in the machine industry to have tocut a good many screw threads on the lathe, so I have come to judge theworth of a lathe by how conveniently it can be manipulated during threadcutting - The South Bend lathe is right near the top of my short list.The South Bend lathe is characterized by its flat belt drive and plainbearing spindle. The machine won't rotate very fast, but the trade offis that there is no finer machine for cutting thin wall cup shaped work,especially in brass. There is a smoothness to the drive and the spindlebearings that defies chatter. In general there are few lathes in anyprice range that can turn as fine a finish as these lathes. I havefound that high speed lathes tend to tempt the operator to run way toofast, resulting in tools that dull quickly and a considerable amount ofspoiled work.The trick with the South Bend lathe seems to be to give the cutting toolconsiderable top and back rake. This allows the cutting tool to shearthe material easily and demand less power. The resulting finish is justgreat and the reasonable cutting speeds allow the rather sharp tool tocut for a long time without dulling. Remember, both the hobbyist andthe instrument maker are interested in accurate size and fine finish.Let the production departments deal with high rotative speeds and hot,heavy cuts.The 13 Inch - This machine is just a 10 Inch machine made large. Ithas a robust bed and a large headstock leg with the motor mounted in it.The left hand legs are solidly cast and the machine levels right up withease. The South Bend 13 Inch lathe is heavier in the bed and carriageand tailstock than most modern lathes of comparable swing.Be careful in your comparisons, many lathes are quite heavy because ofthe gear transmission in their headstocks. weight there does not make arigid machine, the size and weight have to be in the bed and carriageand tailstock.The 13 Inch strikes the best balance between the tool and instrumentlathe and the regular engine lathe. It is sensitive and very easy tomanipulate and every bit as accurate as any lathe made. It also isstout and strong and it will not fade in front of large diameter work.This lathe will chase a 1/4-28 thread or a 1 1/2 - 8 with equal ease.Along with its 10 Inch brother it handles large diameter very finethreads so well that they are a joy to cut.For the live steam hobby, this is the lathe for locomotive drivers andlarge flywheels.These large diameter castings are too delicate for the speed and powerof the big gear head lathes and they require a fine finish forappearance. Again this is where the flat belt drive and the plainbearing spindle come into their own.A note about headstocks. When engine lathes were used in production,speed and power were essential. Manufacturers of lathes designed geartransmissions for lathes to get high turning effort at high speeds inorder to allow the lathe to remove a great deal of metal in the shortesttime. From the late 1940's on, engine lathes had even heavierheadstocks with larger power transmission capacity so the machines couldtake advantage of the tungsten carbide tooling that was being applied toproduction work.For general lathe work and especially for the hobbyist, none of thisspeed and power is necessary. I can't understand why lathes of 13 Inchswing and smaller have to have the complication and potential mechanicaltrouble associated with a geared headstock. It seems that, especiallyamongst the newer imported lathes, the geared headstock was what wasexpected or what was scaled down when the machine was designed.

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  • Wirecutter
    replied
    Super-tools debate raging on...

    What a great thread! Like many here, I've drooled and dreamed of HLV's, 10EEs, FP-1s, FP-3s, etc. But I haven't had a chance to see a serious debate comparing them, by people who have experience with them.

    I fall into the category of those who could (and have) equipped a home shop for a fraction of the cost of that HLV. As nice as it would be, having an HLV would be, for me, like having a home audio system costing as much. I'm not a sufficiently sophisticated audiophile to appreciate the difference between say, a $1500 audio system and a full-blown $20,000 setup. (Oh, I certainly could learn!)

    LOL - I could make some seriously fine high-precision scrap with such a nice machine, though.

    But seriously - I've only ever laid hands on an HLV one time, and that was only for a second.
    Originally posted by greywynd
    (Tapping in a 3 jaw on these can be interesting because of the mounting method for the chucks.)

    Mark
    What exactly is it about the chuck mount? I'm guessing it's some kind of locking setup, unlike my SB9, which simply screws on.

    I'd be interested in hearing more of the 10EE-vs-HLV debate. Maybe someday I'll out-grow my little South Bend, or hit the lottery. I guess I'll be due for a midlife crisis soon - a little preparation may be in order...

    -Mark

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  • Mcgyver
    replied
    Originally posted by BobWarfield
    I do think that while it is hard to argue these nice tools are worth "30x more",
    I vaguely remember something in economics, call the utility curve iirc? basically it says you can't universally say lathe A or B is better (say B was 3x the price and 25% better however you define better). What determines for you which is better is the utility you are prepared to pay for. If ya got 'em smoke 'em boys....how much you want the utility and how much you have and are prepared to spend determines what's better for you. with the right economic freedom i'd write a cheque for a new Hardinge and suffer no guilt but as was said it also carves away a lot of excuses

    a guy like Gates is at such a stratospheric place on the curve, its like a different existence. I spent my morning making BA nut drivers, wonder what Bill did? I think there'd inevitably be some change in how you spend your time with 100b in the bank. not that I'm only making nut drivers cuz that's all i can afford to do with my time, I like making nut drivers, but in his shoes it might be really hard to decide that was the highest and best use of time.

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  • BobWarfield
    replied
    Bill Gates, believe it or not, is not a very materialistic person. There are some of his peers, like Larry Ellison, who are. I used to workout at the same gym as Larry (not a very fancy gym, BTW, but tucked away and not frequented, which is why he liked it) and heard him say $30 million is the sum of money were you can buy anything that makes even the least sense. Beyond that, he says the money is all about ego. Mind you, his toys are world beating yachts and fighter planes, and not machine tools, but you see the point.

    I do think that while it is hard to argue these nice tools are worth "30x more", there are some projects requiring perhaps a degree of precision and difficulty, where it might be almost impossible to do them without the proper tools. We've all watched with amusement when some young turk arrives ready to convert his drill press into a mill that cuts at 300 ipm with perfect precision and just wants to know "how to build that."

    I suspect the JPL guy's issue may have been one that many of us have--time. He had money to buy the tools (BTW, in aggregate they didn't cost him as much as a single Italian Exotic Sports car in all likelihood, machine tools are a cheap hobby), but no time to pursue the hobby.

    Time is one thing even Bill Gates can't buy much more of. Enjoy the time you've got and make many wonderful things!

    And by all means, let's continue the Hardinge versus Monarch debate--they're both outrageous home shop machines!

    Best,

    BW

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  • wierdscience
    replied
    I am expected to turnout work that functions well both in fit and finish everyday on what is basically wornout junk.Mind you I don't mind doing it so long as occasionally when I see the chance to make things better I can(new tooling,spindle bearings etc.).

    However when on occasion I do get to use a machine that is in top notch shape or at least new it's like taking a vacation.You enjoy yourself while you are there,but get depressed when you have to go home

    Alistair,there has been an argument as to which is better the Hardinge or the Monarch 10EE for many years.I think I'll need one of each so I can do a proper comparison,care to contribute to a worthy cause?

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  • Alistair Hosie
    replied
    I agree with you Evan but having expensive eqipment no matter how expensive will not produce better work in a statistical sense I E if you pay fifteen grand as opposed to say a grand an equall worker will not produce an article fifteen times better that's a fact. However nice tools make you sometimes approach a job with a better attitude if you take a lot of care over your machines then the likelyhood is you will adopt a better aproach to your work ethic.Alistair

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  • Evan
    replied
    When I see something like that it makes me wonder what it is like to be Bill Gates. When he wants something the only question is whether it exists or not, and if it doesn't, can it be made to exist?

    There are a lot of people around that wouldn't think twice about spending that sort of money. The cost of something plays no part in their buying decision. That is a very pretty lathe and would turn out work as well as the person using it is capable of doing.

    There is an old saying, "A poor workman blames his tools". To some degree that is true. However, even the best workman will be limited by the capability of his tools and the better the tools the better the product the workman is able to make.

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  • DancingBear
    replied
    Originally posted by greywynd
    ... I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge. It's a matter of getting to know how to use the equipment. $15,000 is a good chunk of coin for a lathe, a lot of the folks on here could equip their entire shop for that. (I'm sure some of you have done it for less.)

    (Mind you I'd also take the Hardinge in my shop if it was offered!!)

    Mark
    Yeah, it's all really about skill more than tools. And 15 grand would do a pretty nice job of equipping a shop. It's definitely about 14.5 grand more than I paid for mine. Yes, it's a lot nicer, but not 30 times nicer.

    But if someone gave me one I'd jump on it like a spawning salmon!

    Walt

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  • daryl bane
    replied
    This lathe is with a bunch of other equally fine stuff, deckel, tree mill, etc. It all belonged to one guy. I wondered what the story was? Did he die, lose interest? The copy said the guy was a JPL engineer and these were his personal machines. Certainly the makins of a dream shop.

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  • Alistair Hosie
    replied
    Don't misunderstand me that lathe is in beautiful condition, and is all there, but apart from that it is very expensive .These are great lathes but I have seen them albeit not as shiney as that one go for very small sums of money on ebay here in the uk can't understand why.I have seen hardinges go for آ£100 and above so it would make more sense to buy a cheap one and do it up.I would love one as a second lathe but prefer a monarch 10 ee anyday lovely piece of eqipment but in my opinion overpriced Alistair

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  • gundog
    replied
    I wonder what reliable has in it$? Don't you just wish you could have got it before they did.
    GD

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  • thistle
    replied
    If there was a Santa Claus he could drop one of those down the chimney, and and equally nice 10 ee , a suitable dro to match each machine , then toss in a nice green FP3 or 4 (dros as well ), then maybe a colchester 15x50 - probably 2500 rpm please,alsoWells index variable speed head 3hp,the verticle horizontal model, then when santa has done all that he should have learned a few things and he cansurprise me with a surface grinder and also start on the cnc stuff ........oh what a long list it would be.

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  • Fasttrack
    replied
    "There is one disadvantage to that lathe: if you make scrap, there isn't a shred of doubt about where the fault lies..."

    lmao - yeah i was thinking, "boy what a beautiful piece of machinery; i wish i could afford something like that", but then i read that and realized i'd better just stick with my three-in-one. That way i always have a handy excuse when i screw stuff up.

    "I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge."

    Doesn't matter whether its a cheap inport or an atlas or a southbend -- if it was me with the hardinge thats too true! lol
    Last edited by Fasttrack; 07-15-2006, 01:09 PM.

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  • greywynd
    replied
    Well, that one is in nice shape. I will say though, with using the two that we have at work, with a couple exceptions they aren't a whole lot different than any other decent small/midsize lathe. Long this stock still deflects and cuts tapers, stuff can (and will) runout and need to be indicated, etc. The variable speed is nice, but there are lots of fellas on here that have figured out different ways to do that on any lathe. The collet setup also works nice, but they are really made for that purpose. (Tapping in a 3 jaw on these can be interesting because of the mounting method for the chucks.)

    I'd be willing that there are quite a few people on here that can make nicer stuff on an old South Bend or Atlas then some people could on that Hardinge. It's a matter of getting to know how to use the equipment. $15,000 is a good chunk of coin for a lathe, a lot of the folks on here could equip their entire shop for that. (I'm sure some of you have done it for less.)

    (Mind you I'd also take the Hardinge in my shop if it was offered!!)

    Mark

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  • DancingBear
    replied
    Great. Now my den is knee-deep in drool!

    There is one disadvantage to that lathe: if you make scrap, there isn't a shred of doubt about where the fault lies...

    Walt

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