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  • #31
    Originally posted by Doozer View Post
    Originally posted by Doozer View Post
    The obsessive comulsive disorder people like ... rant...
    if you are so trendy that you insist to differentiate between
    metric and system international, you need to go and find more friends.
    There preference of metric is due to their ill emotional health.


    Originally posted by Doozer View Post
    They tend to supress epiphanies of personal enlightnement.
    So you get what we have here before us today.
    -Doozer



    If you are trying to make more friends, probably don't talk about the differences between metric and ISO.
    I am an engineer and sure as heII don't know. There is also something call JIC. I would not talk about that either. As for therapy or meds, I suggest alcohol and karaoke.

    "They tend to supress epiphanies of personal enlightnement."
    means they choose not to accept new information. Like the flat earth people.

    -Doozer
    Oh.

    George

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Georgineer View Post
      ................Many of these are not ISO threads, and therefore shouldn't be prefixed with "M". That has no bearing on whether they have ever been used, still exist, or are still available to buy. There have been many national series of metric threads (including the British B.A. series) and they are all still out there somewhere, but none of them should be used in new designs............
      The ISO series of small, coarse threads is M2, M2.2, M2.5, M3, M3.5, M4, M4.5, M5 (ignoring smaller and larger sizes). In fifty years of engineering design and maintenance I have frequently used M2, M2.5, M3, M4 and M5 in new designs and encountered them in existing designs. I have never used nor encountered M2.2 or M4.5.

      The only place I have encountered M3.5 is as the misguided official replacement for the 4 BA thread used to fix switches and sockets into pattresses and wall boxes in the UK. They are inconveniently close, being 3.5 x 0.6 mm in one case, 3.6 x 0.66 mm in the other. Difficult to distinguish by eye, and a pain in the proverbial bits when working on a system which has a mixture of new and old parts............George ...​
      George, I am not picking on you, but your post has some magnificent comments that instill further thought.
      Here is the situation ( cause ?) that results in these issues---transportation !
      Yep, it's all caused by movement. When a Engineer from Germany moves to the USA, he designs stuff with his ( DIN) Metric Standards
      When a Japanese Engineer makes parts, he uses Metric ( but his metric !)
      When a Engineer who was raised on a farm designs his equipment in the big city, he uses threads familiar to him from farm equipment.
      When a "Watch" Engineer is displaced because no one wears geared watches anymore, he goes to work for an appliance maker and uses "his " inventory of threads.

      Case in point
      Back in 1986 I was running a Die shop and all of a sudden the prints called for 1"-13 threads when all our former work was 1"-12 ( NF)
      The company had hired a new design engineer and when I confronted him about the change he said that was the way "he" designed things
      and proceeded to tell me how much better "his" design was on our product ( which was 10 yrs old) - he had worked for XYZ company in another State and they "Knew more"---(even though it was no longer a standard !)
      ( now 1-13 was a very old standard replaced during WW II with the new 1-12 thread standard)

      So Folks, the problem is movement.. if everyone stayed in their hometown and didn't move, we would not have this issue !

      By the way , he lost ... we stayed with our original standard when i showed the owner the cost of new tooling (taps and drills ) AND
      fixtures and jigs ! and inventory growth like spare parts
      You fellows are accustomed to CNC, and this was at the start of CNC and we had jigs with drill bushing sized to tap drills on the manual radial drills.
      Redoing those jigs cost $$$

      So stop moving !
      Rich


      Last edited by Rich Carlstedt; 03-04-2023, 10:37 AM.
      Green Bay, WI

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by J Tiers View Post

        Not always. There are some "normal" things that I have over the years noticed they don't carry. I ran into such items from time to-time in the past. I order less from them now than I used to, so I don't recall any recently.

        Still, they are definitely the best as far as their ordering system, and good stock. Not the cheapest, but you pay for them having it.
        I have to agree with you about McMaster Carr's website. I think that if Sears had gotten the same company to make their website a couple of decades ago they would now be ahead of Amazon in sales.
        OPEN EYES, OPEN EARS, OPEN MIND

        THINK HARDER

        BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE

        MY NAME IS BRIAN AND I AM A TOOLOHOLIC

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by bborr01 View Post

          I have to agree with you about McMaster Carr's website. I think that if Sears had gotten the same company to make their website a couple of decades ago they would now be ahead of Amazon in sales.
          THANK YOU. I've been making the argument for years that the biggest retailers in the world are those with the most stuff and the easiest to buy from. Not the ones who told customers to improvise, do without, or go elsewhere.

          I often get push back that you can't have everything, and that's true, but I quit shopping Sears as often when they killed the catalog department. So did a few other people. When they kille doff sporting goods I had less reason to go there. Don't tell me the high margin crap they had was sporting goods either. Finally they started focusing more and more on high profit items like clothing and I had even less reason to go there. Then they started reducing service and playing games with their lifetime warranty on tools...

          I argued that if they had embraced the Internet FIRST with selection and service the same and growing they would be ahead of WalMart and Amazon today. Miles ahead. WalMart would have had a two step advantage if they had adopted Internet sales early. They had already stepped into a serendipitous discount retail vacuum when dozens and dozens of owners of other chain stores retired (successfully) and just liquidated instead of going public or raising a dynasty to takeover.

          The sad part is I sat in business classes in college listening to instructors tell rooms full of people that turn rate and margin are king no matter what period end of discussion. Let customers go somewhere else for the low margin or low turn rate stuff they need. If I was feeling like it I'd argue "If you tell a customer to go somewhere else that has what they need they will, and they will buy their other needs and wants there too." I only had one instructor who grudgingly admit there is some merit to that in some markets. Just grudgingly. I grew up working in country stores. I saw it every single day as a reality. My dad never said, "You will have to go to town for that." He said, "I'll get that for you when I go to town."

          Caveat: "I'll get it for you doesn't work any more." Not when people can go on-line and get it for themselves. The principle of having what they need still survives though. If I need an auto part or a plumbing fitting today I'll sometimes over pay a little if the local store HAS IT IN STOCK, but if they will "get it for me," I'll save myself two trips to the store and get it for myself. Often I will check to see if they have it anyway. I do believe in the benefits of buying local when I can, and if its reasonable. Local taxes. Local wages. Local income Etc...

          Brick and mortar retail was always hard work, but I think today its depends more and more on having what your customer needs TODAY.

          There is another principle that leans into this a little. 'Its easier to sell to the customer standing in your office than the one walking down the street.' Often consultant hacks, marketing hacks, and advertising hacks use it to mean, "push more stuff on your existing customers." That's true if you don't piss them off, but its not all of it. If a one legged man walks into your cobblers shop and asks for two left boots its more profitable tell him, "Sure I can make left boots for you. It will cost a little more per boot because I am tooled up to make matching pairs, but I'm glad to do it for you," then if you tell him, "Sorry! I only make pairs because its more efficient." I know that example is a little ridiculous, but if you sell him what he needs you both profit.


          --
          Bob La Londe
          Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real" machinist​
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

          Comment


          • #35
            I'll go a couple of steps further, needs fast, economical shipping, and a zero hassle return system. I go to Amazon first for everything mainly for easy returns. GetFPV is a local business I order from with quick shipping but returns are a hassle. Never had to return anything from McMaster because they only sell quality items. I don't expect other companies to compete with Amazon but that doesn't mean I'm willing to spend my money with them.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by RB211 View Post
              I'll go a couple of steps further, needs fast, economical shipping, and a zero hassle return system. I go to Amazon first for everything mainly for easy returns. GetFPV is a local business I order from with quick shipping but returns are a hassle. Never had to return anything from McMaster because they only sell quality items. I don't expect other companies to compete with Amazon but that doesn't mean I'm willing to spend my money with them.
              Well, twice I've ordered things I needed right away from Amazon with PRIME offered two day free shipping or next day paid shipping, paid the next day shipping, and then they shipped it slow boat from China. Then they argued they didn't offer those shipping terms when they actually showed on my purchase information and still on the product listing. I didn't get the next day shipping refunded and I didn't get the parts next day or even next week. Another time I ordered a five relays from Amazon for a project because it was the only place I could find the exact part number. They sent me four relays and a bamboo flute. It tooks weeks to get refunded for the missing relay when I would rather have had the fifth relay, and then after telling me to just toss the 2¢ bamboo flute in the trash they notified me they couldn't complete the refund until I returned it. I have all the messages. It was crazy. Amazon has their days when they suck **** through a straw and refuse to make it right too,
              --
              Bob La Londe
              Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real" machinist​
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bob La Londe View Post

                I quit shopping Sears as often when they killed the catalog department.
                I quit shopping at Sears around 1985, when I went in to buy a sump pump for my flooding basement, and they told me I couldn't use my Visa card (and "did I want to open a Sears card account?").

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by gmax137 View Post

                  I quit shopping at Sears around 1985, when I went in to buy a sump pump for my flooding basement, and they told me I couldn't use my Visa card (and "did I want to open a Sears card account?").
                  Sears reduced service and selection in a lot of ways over the years to try to increase profits and each one cost them customers. I'm not sure what they did that brought in new customers other than maybe some creative advertising.
                  --
                  Bob La Londe
                  Professional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real" machinist​
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Well, Sears and every other brick and mortar store with the exception of Walmart has went away or is slowly dying. Best Buy will be the next big name to go away. The overhead of having a store is very costly. Amazon makes money from their warehousing and doesn't have to pay for a store. Everyone is a contractor, further lowering their costs.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      So back the the nuts and bolts discussion. Today I was working on the motion works for a 100+cyears old street clock. The fasteners in question are #12-24. They look at first glance to be skinny 1/4-28 or fat #10-24. Looked the specifications in a 100 year old American Machinists Handbook. With the specications and a lathe any misssing/destroyed fasteners can be made. If I take care with the disassembly, cleaning and assembly there will not be a need for a tap or die.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Stepside View Post
                        So back the the nuts and bolts discussion. Today I was working on the motion works for a 100+cyears old street clock. The fasteners in question are #12-24. They look at first glance to be skinny 1/4-28 or fat #10-24. Looked the specifications in a 100 year old American Machinists Handbook. With the specications and a lathe any misssing/destroyed fasteners can be made. If I take care with the disassembly, cleaning and assembly there will not be a need for a tap or die.
                        Post war and older Lionel trains use pre WW2 standard screws, in other words, not standard today.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I checked with McMaster-Carr and they have both taps and dies. It would eat a $100 to get set up. They also have the screws but not the desired head type. Nothing looks worse on an antique than a phillps head screw unless it is a torx or hex socket.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Rich Carlstedt View Post

                            George, I am not picking on you, but your post has some magnificent comments that instill further thought.
                            Here is the situation ( cause ?) that results in these issues---transportation !
                            Yep, it's all caused by movement. When a Engineer from Germany moves to the USA, he designs stuff with his ( DIN) Metric Standards
                            When a Japanese Engineer makes parts, he uses Metric ( but his metric !)
                            When a Engineer who was raised on a farm designs his equipment in the big city, he uses threads familiar to him from farm equipment.
                            When a "Watch" Engineer is displaced because no one wears geared watches anymore, he goes to work for an appliance maker and uses "his " inventory of threads.

                            Case in point
                            Back in 1986 I was running a Die shop and all of a sudden the prints called for 1"-13 threads when all our former work was 1"-12 ( NF)
                            The company had hired a new design engineer and when I confronted him about the change he said that was the way "he" designed things
                            and proceeded to tell me how much better "his" design was on our product ( which was 10 yrs old) - he had worked for XYZ company in another State and they "Knew more"---(even though it was no longer a standard !)
                            ( now 1-13 was a very old standard replaced during WW II with the new 1-12 thread standard)

                            So Folks, the problem is movement.. if everyone stayed in their hometown and didn't move, we would not have this issue !

                            By the way , he lost ... we stayed with our original standard when i showed the owner the cost of new tooling (taps and drills ) AND
                            fixtures and jigs ! and inventory growth like spare parts
                            You fellows are accustomed to CNC, and this was at the start of CNC and we had jigs with drill bushing sized to tap drills on the manual radial drills.
                            Redoing those jigs cost $$$

                            So stop moving !
                            Rich

                            Rich, I'm quite happy to be picked on in a positive way! I can't help thinking that the problem you outline is not so much to do with people moving, but that some people take their arthritic minds with them when they move. I've worked with a few!

                            George

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Georgineer View Post

                              Rich, I'm quite happy to be picked on in a positive way! I can't help thinking that the problem you outline is not so much to do with people moving, but that some people take their arthritic minds with them when they move. I've worked with a few!

                              George
                              Or not paying attention..... Most companies have standards, or standard ways of doing routine things. It pays, in a new job, to find out what those are. If you think there is a problem with them, then bring it up. Otherwise, if it hurts nothing, just do it that way.
                              CNC machines only go through the motions.

                              Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                              Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                              Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                              I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                              Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                On topic to the current discussion is a book sold by Village Press, Kozo Hiraoka Pennsy A3 locomotive. It is a construction book to build a 3.5" gauge live steam locomotive. The problem is that he is used to metric but decided to use imperial units, except he did it in fractions and used less popular hardware like 3-48 for many things. He tried hard to appeal to Americans but it was a case of not using the standards one is used to using, All of his other books are in metric.

                                Comment

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