flywheels yet again

[The Metal Butcher]

British also experiment with flywheel powered buses. Mechanical batteries from one stop to another.

[A.K. Boomer]

The telephone exchanges years ago in the U.K. had sperry high speed gyro generators, these were big, like 1/2 ton things in a vacuum tank spun up by motor, the things activated in a power failure, the drive motor becomes the generator, I was told they could power the telephone network for 12 hours or more, these things were regarded as dangerous enough to embed in steel reinforced concrete, I saw a photo but never got a one to one look, the idea seemed brilliant to me, makes me wonder if these things are still about, seems like a good idea for back up power
mark

That is absolutely incredible WOW factor X 10 !!!

[boslab]

British also experiment with flywheel powered buses. Mechanical batteries from one stop to another.

I heard about the gyro bus, think it was up in Liverpool or Blackpool, there was another in Holland, had a trawl and the search term “flywheel generator” dragged up a load of interesting stuff, seems the old GPO generators are coming back, like MW beasts in Europe, they call them mechanical batteries now
mark

[J Tiers]

McDonnell-Douglas Automation had several at their big computer complex outside St Louis. They did not have that sort of hold-up time, however. They were simply to bridge the time from grid failure to when the diesel generators were up and running.

They were thus used as a short term "UPS", my understanding was that they could supply the load for less than 5 minutes, if that. But, the building was a large one,with many powerful computers in it, and no power failure could be tolerated. This was at least 30 years ago.

[boslab]

I think the telephones were running on 50v or less so there wasn’t a big load , now it’s solar panels and batteries I suppose.
the exchanges had Edison battery rooms in some towns too.
mark

[A.K. Boomer]

I think the telephones were running on 50v or less so there wasn’t a big load , now it’s solar panels and batteries I suppose.
the exchanges had Edison battery rooms in some towns too.
mark

Volts without amps is moot. those flywheels could have kept 50 volts going almost indefinitely (or until the bearings reaped their toll) Watt's is the rating that determines how long the flywheels could have endured rotational generating function...

but who cares? what an incredible way of tackling a problemo... very cool

[J Tiers]

There's amps in that.

Normal voltage is 48V, and any off hook old "POTS" (Plain Old Telephone Set, with carbon mic etc) is going to draw 50 or a hundred milliamps. Newer ones with electronics in them may draw a bit less, but it takes a certain amount of current just to maintain an "off hook" condition.

Total current depends on number of subscribers, and percentage that are "off hook" at any given time.

[A.K. Boomer]

There's amps in that.

.

Of course there is - that's the whole point, in fact you cannot have volts without amps...
milliamps - whatever - the bottom line is come up with the weight of the flywheel --- the speed it's spinning at - the class bearings the thing is supported in, and then give me the F-in watts of demand.
"overall" as in normal average daily demand,,......... don't give me amps without volts - that's meaningless - don't give me volts without amps... again --- meaningless... give me both amps and volts and i'll figure out the watts or cut to the chase and give me the freakin watts...

[tomato coupe]

Physics- motions and reactions with flywheels- we all know the flywheel effect, spin a wheel and try to tilt it- you get a reaction. But does this spinning wheel have any reaction in the axial direction? Have a wheel spinning horizontally, and lift it up and down without tilting it. Is there a difference in what you feel between lifting it when it's rotating to lifting it when it's still?

No.

[J Tiers]

Of course there is - that's the whole point, in fact you cannot have volts without amps...
milliamps - whatever - t.......................

Well, yes you can, and it happens all the time. Static electricity, a battery with no load on it, etc, etc.

What you are saying, correctly, is that unless there is current, there is no "power", energy is not being transferred.

[A.K. Boomer]

Well, yes you can, and it happens all the time. Static electricity, a battery with no load on it, etc, etc.

What you are saying, correctly, is that unless there is current, there is no "power", energy is not being transferred.

Yes - that's what im saying - we are after all talking about energy transference not a "stagnant reservoir"

BUT - It would also be interesting to know how long those massive flywheels in a vacuum would spin without any current draw at all just bearing frictions eventually taking their toll...

[old mart]

I have seen pictures of banks of those flywheels running in a vacuum , as JT mentions in post # 19, they were only an early form of ups.

[J Tiers]

Yes - that's what im saying - we are after all talking about energy transference not a "stagnant reservoir"

BUT - It would also be interesting to know how long those massive flywheels in a vacuum would spin without any current draw at all just bearing frictions eventually taking their toll...

Measure the power required to keep them rotating over the range of useful speeds, and figure that effect over time. There is your answer, since you know the initial stored energy, and can subtract the energy left at the minimum useful rpm. Now you know the available energy, and with the rate of drain (power) used for the bearings, any load, etc, you can determine the probable "hold-up time" at any rate of energy withdrawal to loads from zero to maximum.

To maximize the total energy available, it is less useful to have the flywheels hard-connected to alternators, as that links voltage and frequency into the equation. When enough energy has been extracted to slow the rotation out of spec, there is still likely much energy left. Better is to have them generate a variable voltage, and then separately condition the resulting voltage output, which may be DC, to result in the desired AC output.

If you only need DC as the real input voltage to the equipment (the load equipment rectifies the AC as it comes in), then you can go direct to DC from the flywheels, and save losses in intervening processes.

[darryl]

Ok, well I suppose my question has been answered. Since we're now on a different track, I'll pose another question- or idea at least. I want to set up a flywheel on a gimbal, and I'm expecting to find a daily pattern in the rotation of the gimbal. I'm also expecting to find that pattern changing due to how I initially set the angles of the gimbal- or let's say the axis of the flywheel relative to east/west and north/south. If the initial setting is north/south, and the axis is tilted according to my lattitude, I should find a point where the gimbals don't trace out a daily pattern. This would be where the rotational axis of the flywheel is parallel to the axis of the earth. Now I should find that the precession of the earths axis shows in the motion of the gimbals. I would have to wait, what- thousands of years to detect this? Also, as the earth orbits around the sun, should we see a yearly pattern? And since the larger planets affect the orbit of the earth, we should also be able to detect the effects of that on the motion of the gimbals, true or no? And since the solar system is in some kind of orbit relative to the center of our galaxy, we should be able to see the effects of that too-

Perhaps also there is no relative point anywhere in the universe that would show as a center of any of these motions. Do we have such a thing as a point in space where the 'big bang' originated? Do any gravitational effects come into play here? Orbits of celestial bodies, sure- but is the pure flywheel effect linked to gravity or time in any way?

[The Artful Bodger]

Ok, well I suppose my question has been answered. Since we're now on a different track, I'll pose another question- or idea at least. I want to set up a flywheel on a gimbal, and I'm expecting to find a daily pattern in the rotation of the gimbal.

If the flywheel were to be accurately balanced and the gimbals free of friction the flywheel axis would not move with respect to the universe however the earth, from which we observe the flywheel, does have a number movements. If I recall correctly, when I studied celestial navigation we were told that the navigation tables we were using had been corrected for 32 known distinct movements of the earth.

As demonstrated by Leon Foucault in 1851 you should be able to demonstrate daily cycle of the earth's movement, he used a pendulum but I assume you could demonstrate the same with a gimbaled flywheel.

john