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OT: Watched "9/11 mysteries"

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  • OT: Watched "9/11 mysteries"

    Okay after the interesting discussions that followed the "Who Killed the Electric Car" thread, I'd like to get some opinions on this one. It's a 90ish minute flick on google video right now.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90071483512003

    I'm not a conspiracy buff or anything but I do wonder about some of the "facts" presented here. Mainly about the heat of the fires and the degradation of the steel/possible use of thermite.

    Once again, the film is about twice as long as it needed to be (for my taste). Still worth a look though--the price is right! Sidegrinder.

  • #2
    I've also thought of posting on this because it directly relates to the properties of metal. There is a professor at BYU University that has written on this subject. Presumably he has some expertise in the area and he has raised some interesting questions. His assessment is that there was thermite involved in the destruction of the World Trade Towers and that it was a controlled destruction.

    One thing I was thinking when I was looking at steel "evidence" is that probably lots of oxy/acetylene was used during the cleanup of the rubble. Perhaps thermite was used in the cutting of beams during the cleanup. I don't know. I think it would be obvious to any metallurgist studying the evidence. That evidence would be hard to keep secret. Some evidence seems to exist and the official explanations haven't satisfied the PhD’s.

    The official explanation seems to be that the softening and sagging of the beams caused rivets to fail and then a domino effect of collapsing floors.

    Good questions should be asked because it is the first time that a steel building ever collapsed like that due to a fire. And it collapsed nearly perfectly. Then the second tower collapsed nearly perfectly onto the property it was built on and then a third building collapsed that wasn't exposed to a kerosene fueled fire.

    Other questions are about the temperature of the fire as indicated by the smoke.

    Lots of great questions. So many facts are difficult to explain by coincidence.
    This isn't about Democrats or Republicans. The answers must be arrived at by evidence and investigation. The 109th Congress has failed to investigate almost everything. 9 Billion Dollars unaccounted for. Tens of thousands of weapons dispersed without any accounting or recording of serial numbers (no doubt they entered the black market.)

    Replace the 109th Congress on November 7th with some that haven't been bribed yet. The "K" Street crowd (Lobbyists for the corporations) hate it when that happens.

    Comment


    • #3
      More idiocy.

      The only "clue" they have for the theorized presence of thermite is one company detected a high concentration of some propane daughter compound (1,3 isopropane or some such, I can't recall.)

      That supposedly one of the components used in some modern version of thermite- except that nobody can point out any referecnes to that little factoid. All the Google results online simply point to that factoid on conspiracist sites.

      Second, if it is a component of thermite, why is it being detected after the extremely hot combustion of said product?

      And third, said daughter compound is apparently freely released by the incomplete burning of PVC and similar plastics- of which the two towers probably contained many thousands of tons, in the form of water and sewage piping, plastic desk, chair and computer cases, and hundreds of other products.

      One analisys pointed out that, to achieve the concentrations of that daughter compound, they have had to burn between 3,000 and 6,000 tons of thermite (though again, that doesn't explain how a compound used in it's mixture can survive the elevated conbustion temperatures when ignited.)

      No conspiracist seems to have an explanation as to how anyone snuck several thousand tons of thermite into a large and busy office building manned 24 hours a day (that's where "world trade" comes in, you know) without being spotted, or without anyone noticing any crews, you know, drilling through walls ir dismantling ceilings in order to place tens of thousands of charges.

      No, what's happened is some testing company found greatly elevated quantities of an obscure compound, happened to say something like "we've never tested this much before!" in public, the conspiracists matched the compound to an apparently new and advanbced form of thermite, and automatically assumed that said weapon was used to destroy the office buildings.

      And, as all good conspiracists and other faithful, inconvenient facts such as the quantity detected, the much more plausible source of the compound vapor, the utter illogic of the implied support for their argument (IE, the sheer manpower it would take to emplant thousands of tons of an explosive in a busy office building) and the fact the compound almost certainly can't survive the weapon's combustion and still be detected as the original compound, are all conveniently ignored.

      Doc.
      Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

      Comment


      • #4
        well put Doc.
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        Thank you to our families of soldiers, many of whom have given so much more then the rest of us for the Freedom we enjoy.

        It is true, there is nothing free about freedom, don't be so quick to give it away.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah. Thanks doc. I get tired of so called experts second guessing the facts.Many TONS of A1, plenty of oxygen, and an already damaged structure. It isn't rocket science.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SJorgensen
            There is a professor at BYU University that has written on this subject.
            Except he's not at BYU any more. It appears the university found him to be an embarrassment:

            On September 7, 2006, he was placed on paid leave while his university reviewed the scientific basis of his work in this area. Six weeks later, before the review would have been made, Jones elected to retire from BYU. On October 20, 2006 Steven Jones and BYU finalized a retirement package.
            Link
            Todd

            Comment


            • #7
              [make rotating motion of finger beside head, rolls eyes]

              Well, at least the idea that the moon might have a layer of dust hundreds of meters deep and swallow the lander as soon as it touched down had some slight justification. I mean, there was a story written about it. Oh, wait. That was fiction.
              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

              Comment


              • #8
                But was Capricorn One ?

                .
                .

                Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                Comment


                • #9
                  There were two episodes of NOVA,that examined this very subject.Both were based on actual science with actual engineers including the one designed the WTC towers.
                  The first original arguement was the "fuel load of the planes wasn't significant enough to account for enough heat"
                  Several computer models of the building and impact were done and all revealed the same thing.One that significant structural damage was done to the building when the planes sheared 1/2 of the outside columns on one side and several in the core.As the planes disintegrated the force of the impact push everything that was in those offices,including people,to the opposite sides.Desks,chairs,computers,files etc,etc.This greatly added to the fuel load and provided more than enough heat to the columns opposite the ones already sheared by the plane as it entered.The fuel load combined with the wind even though light that day made one hell of a blast furnace.

                  Second,the force of the impact blew much of the fire proofing from the floor joists,as the fire built in intensity those floor joists yielded causing them to sway.As this happened two things occured.One the lateral support they provided for both the inner and outer columns disappeared.Second at the same time the loads they were carrying went from a shear load to a bending load exerting more pressure on the already weakened columns,it was only a matter of time.

                  As to the colapse,both were not perfect.IIRC tower one fell sideways as it landed and struck WTC7,tower two landed mostly in it's basement,but the top floors struck the other building,which was an appartment building as I recall.

                  The interview with the chief engineer was interesting,his career was on the line,but he was feeling anguish wondering if it was his design that caused the colapse.Originaly being struck by a jetliner was a concern and they factored that in using the largest commercial jet in service at the time which was a 737? IIRC.Only they couldn't have predicted the increased fuel load and speed of todays jets,nor the fact that someone would intentionally fly full speed into a building.

                  Now we get to the conspiracy,as shocking as it may seem,I do believe it was a conspiracy......between 21 muslim extremists.The colapse was planned and coordinated by an engineer,Mohamed Atta.

                  Every detail was worked out,the timing.The second plane hitting later than the first,imagine the horror of the people on the ground,first responders,victims blown out windows all on the streets below suddenly had wreckage raining down on top of them.Atta knew the design of the WTC,he knew the volnerable points,he knew the simple equations to inflict the greatest damage.That was the only conspiracy.

                  I will try to see if my boss has pictures from the welding supply and beauty shop next door after it burnt.It was only a two story building,but when it burnt,the fire lasted no longer than three hours,but sagged 16" I beams like taffy,do not under estimate fire's effect on steel.
                  I just need one more tool,just one!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Last I heard, the steel in the WTC was NOT rated to retain its strength when red hot.

                    A full load of jet fuel, a considerable amount of ALUMINUM, and normal office contents make a pretty hot fire. When there is a decent draft, SUCH AS WIND AT THAT LEVEL, it gets hotter.

                    The windows didn't last long...... if they were not broken to start with. So a good side draft, a lot of combustibles, what's to question?

                    The conspiracy theorists have one problem......

                    They start with the idea that the folks they want to finger DEFINITELY "did it"..... Then they figure out HOW they did it.

                    If they can't figure out how, they say that it was very cleverly done.

                    If they CAN come up with a way, they say "THAT'S HOW THEY DID IT".

                    The idea that "they" did NOT do it is ruled out to begin with.
                    1601

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      See here:

                      http://www.vulcan-solutions.com/cardington_Frame-3.html
                      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wierdscience

                        Now we get to the conspiracy,as shocking as it may seem,I do believe it was a conspiracy......between 21 muslim extremists.The colapse was planned and coordinated by an engineer,Mohamed Atta.

                        Every detail was worked out,the timing.The second plane hitting later than the first,imagine the horror of the people on the ground,first responders,victims blown out windows all on the streets below suddenly had wreckage raining down on top of them.Atta knew the design of the WTC,he knew the volnerable points,he knew the simple equations to inflict the greatest damage.That was the only conspiracy.
                        Why is that the population in general can not accept that a small group of extremists, or one lone gun man can destroy an object of a society's pride or cut down their best and brightest.
                        Forty plus years and I still have ten toes, ten fingers and both eyes. I must be doing something right.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You can take any event and create mystery from it's occurance.
                          Whether the Kennedy(s) assasination,
                          Pearl Harbor
                          Hitlers death
                          Flight 800
                          And on and on.

                          Two events happen during life..logical results and "random" occurance.
                          A baby born 9 months after conception is "logical"
                          Having a piano fall on your head while walking down a street is "random" if you were just walking, but "logical" only if someone is trying to murder you and advises you to walk at exactly 8:37 etc,etc

                          I am sure many of us have had "close calls" when it comes to accidents.
                          Were they acts of .....Logic,......... or Random ?
                          Unless you did something BEFORE, to prevent such an occurance, it would be random.
                          But the "Human" brain is mostly Logical (except for those it seems who believe in Global Warming) and even tries to find the logic in random occurances.
                          To do this, they must try to rationalize every action/reaction as logic and not consider random (!!!!).
                          Random does not fit in any "Theory" because it is precisely what it is, a random occurance.
                          You cannot predict when or where the next 12 megaton Metor will hit Earth. it is a random event.
                          You cannot predict next years Hurricanes (sorry G.W. folks) and you will have no idea how many close calls you will have..they are random
                          So when a plane with half a millon pounds of fuel hits a building 100 stories up and the firemen can't reach it,
                          and the sprinklers systems fail, We are supposed to believe that someone planned the collapse with explosives ?

                          Let me blow this out of the water with one observable event. I am an engineer, but not a demolitions expert, nor a structual engineer but I will use only logic. Ready ? ( you can do this at home ...safely too )
                          If you look at the building going down, NOTICE, the floors above the impact zone collapsed unto the impact zone. Note you did not have the floors 20 stories above go first. ( nor the ones below!)THIS occurred in both buildings. Now to believe that explosives were used, BOTH airplanes would have had to hit not only the (Correct !) building, but the EXACT floor for the failures (Thermite ie) to be stored and ignited.
                          yeah I know they had SEVERAL two hundred ton aluminum magets pull them into the building and the correct floor !
                          Give US a break and recognise that a foriegn power is trying to Kill US !
                          Sometimes "experts" with (supposed ) "logic" fail to recognise the obvious......
                          Rich
                          Last edited by Rich Carlstedt; 11-01-2006, 04:24 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            But...... What about WTC7???
                            "The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the greatest liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." H. L. Mencken

                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                            "When fear rules, reason and logic are ruled out."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ProGunOne
                              But...... What about WTC7???
                              What about it? It had it's own emergency generator with a large tank of diesel fuel, which ruptured and ignited when the adjacent WTC tower fell and it's debris heavily damaged a full quarter of the 7 building.

                              The resulting fires weakened the rest of the structure, which then collapsed.

                              What's so suspicious about that?

                              Doc.
                              Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                              Comment

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