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Evan: What is the name of the super slippery stuf you told us about a while back.

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  • #31
    I think the first question is: "Is it information or mis-associated disinformation" I am not trying to suggest either, but it is important to determine whether there is true cause and effect or not. I am sure one to want to know if something I am doing or did was a bad idea so I don't repeat it, but it is important to be able to identify true cause and effect.

    I showered this morning and then had coffee when I got to work....come to think of it, I shower every morning, and have coffee every morning....I wonder if showering causes coffee drinking

    Fortunately, not everything that ends up being toxic if injected penetrates the epidermis or we would be in serious trouble. Ruptured implants put large volumes of silicone gel inside human tissue. Ingestion quantities of stuff from our hands is pretty small. Still, who knows?

    I did PC and printer repair for a decade or so before I started administering servers and had plenty of contact with slimy fuser wipers and even some spilled fuser oil. I don't think I have fibromyalgia in spite of aches and pains and feeling tired a lot...but who knows. I also aged a couple of decades, so it is hard to separate things that develop from aging from things that may be exposure related. I probably didn't deal with it in the volumes you did, however Evan.

    Paul
    Paul Carpenter
    Mapleton, IL

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    • #32
      Wait a minute. I still have questions about this lube stuff.

      I recently dismantled a Minolta color laser printer. The printer itself was of poor design, hard to maintain, and expensive to keep in consummables. It did have lots of neat mechanicals I kept, and finally, it used the aforementioned fuser oil.

      I've also installed a hydraulic brake on my electric gokart, which uses Dot 5 (silicone based) brake fluid. Damn slippery stuff, and hard to get rid of or clean off of anything.

      Finally, years ago when I worked with oceanographic equipment, we used to grease the sealing o-rings with Dow high-vacuum silicone grease. Not really as a lube, but as a sealing component - that high-vacuum grease was really not a good lubricant. It was used because it wouldn't boil in an vacuum or in the presence of similar pressure differential.

      Are you saying that all these products are basically the same thing in differnt viscosities? (Well, the fuser oil and the brake fluid are about the same, IIRC.) Are you saying that I could have, for example, saved myself a trip to the auto parts store and used fuser oil in my gokart brake? I find that very interesting.

      Oh, and thanks for the new and fascinating info and the thread.

      -Mark
      The curse of having precise measuring tools is being able to actually see how imperfect everything is.

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      • #33
        The FDA study isn't the only one to draw a statistically signifcant correlation between silicone oil and FMS and/or connective tissue disorders. There is a fairly large study in Holland that found the same thing and one in Denmark too.

        I am well aware that correlation does not prove causation. It does however give a strong indication that there may be a connection whereas a lack of correlation generally does prove the absence of causation.


        The main problem is the very low prevalence of FMS in men. The diagnosed rate in men in Canada is approximately 1 in 1000 males. This would of course include any cases that may have been induced by exposure to causative factors. With such a rate the number of cases to be expected among the population of Xerox service reps (predominately male) would be less than 2 to 4 nation wide.

        In order to find a correlation it would be necessary to have access to the medical records of all the employees of the company including those who did have exposure and similar employees that didn't.

        My exposure in the first ten years of employment was considerable as no precautions were taken to avoid exposure and the machines in use then used the stuff by the gallons. I would commonly carry around a couple of gallons of the oil in my spare parts and dealt with it every day. Cleaning up leaks and minor spills (on a drop cloth with an impervious mylar layer) was a common occurence. In the first decade of my employment the company did not supply us with protective gloves and nobody I knew used any. The material was considered completely harmless.
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        • #34
          Are you saying that all these products are basically the same thing in differnt viscosities?
          No, not exactly. There are many different formulations that go by different names but they all contain a similar molecular structure.

          Silicone fuser oil is polydimethylsiloxane and that is one of the most widely used formulations.
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          • #35
            There is a common misconception with petroleum lubricants that may or may not be applicable here as well.

            Often, thick grease is presumed to mean a higher viscosity lubricant. In point of fact, grease is oil with a thickening agent that is used to "hold" the oil. There are various thickness gradings for grease (NLGI 1,2, etc.) that reference the viscosity of the grease, but this is separate from the viscosity of the oil that went into that grease. Grease gives up its lubricant to the part being lubricated and it is important to note the viscosity of the oil that will be liberated to the part, separate from the viscosity of the grease itself. In short, the viscosity of the soap thickener may seem to imply more viscosity of the base oil the grease contains, but not necessarily.

            If you look at the spec sheets for most greases, they will tell you the viscosity of the base oil. Grease is grease is not really the case, and it is worth making sure you get the right stuff for the application at hand.

            Paul
            Paul Carpenter
            Mapleton, IL

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            • #36
              PDMS doesn't work the same in that respect. By changing the conditions under which it is formulated the viscosity can be changed. It doesn't rely on any fillers or soaps to change viscosity.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Evan
                That is unfortunately nearly impossible. I worked here in what is a remote one man territory. I didn't have any coworkers that I could easily track down, especially from 20 or 30 years ago. As well, even if silicone oil is correlated with FMS in men it is still a rare condition in men. The sample size wouldn't be nearly large enough. Also, FMS has only been recognized as a true not-a-figment-of-your-imagination condition for the last ten years or so. It is only in recent times that they have found real (but subtle) internal physical changes that are associated with the condition.


                no not impossible , mention keywords such as silicon , fms ,xerox ect ect here enough and it will start climbing up the the google list so that someone else might pick up the thread.

                also i am sure there must be a online group who deals with this disorder, some one konws something somewhere

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                • #38
                  What to do!

                  Evan - Contact the law firm of Dewey, Cheatam & Howe before the two year statute of limitations expires! A.T.

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                  • #39
                    Evan- slippery stuff

                    Not always the very unserious character but I was able to trace people exactly 50 years earlier. I doubt that the same will apply but I set off to trace names. Do the people appear say in a newspaper or trade paper which you could access? Does Canada have a point where names adds and numbers appear as in a large-ish public library? You live near one of the biggest cities. Do you have recent census returns which can be accessed?
                    Do you have a CD with all the phone numbers etc? Do you have rating information or voters lists?

                    The foregoing is what I did. Remember that my quest was officially denied by
                    HM Government and the Metropolitan Police and that it never happened.

                    Evan, you only need to solve one or two names and the rest opens up like a book. The pieces finally start to come together like a jigsaw.

                    So almost 60 years now and someone has said " Norman , will you write the story of your RAF Squadron in 1948-50 when you were there" Remember again that the records were destroyed because the place had one face and a secret face underneath it. Maybe, there was yet another level of secrecy but
                    things like 'Heavy Water' and sabotage schools emerge.
                    I can do it and you can. You only need a beginning- no matter how tiny.

                    Good luck. You have the brain to succeed.

                    Norm

                    PS you do know that a survey of 1000 sufferers has been conducted?
                    Last edited by Norman Atkinson; 01-10-2007, 03:15 PM.

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                    • #40
                      You live near one of the biggest cities.


                      You really must visit some time Norman. "Near" is a very relative term here. When I say "just down the road" around here that includes anything within a 100 kilometer radius. Vancouver is a 14 hour round trip distant from here and that's at 110km per hour.

                      no not impossible , mention keywords such as silicon , fms ,xerox ect ect here enough and it will start climbing up the the google list so that someone else might pick up the thread.

                      also i am sure there must be a online group who deals with this disorder, some one konws something somewhere
                      Maybe. There is a men's support group online for FMS sufferers. I never even bothered posting there. What a bunch of whingers. Each one trying to outdo the next with how bad their symptoms are.

                      The biggest problem with FMS in men is that it is so uncommon. They have no idea what causes it in women other than some correlations with traumatic medical events or infections and as I have now discovered, possible exposure to PDMS.

                      The main problem is trying to study it in men. With a prevalence of only 0.1% you need a population of at least several million to find enough participants to do a study. The very few studies that have been done with men have very small sample sizes but do indicate that the condition presents quite differently than in women. This is very likely because of hormonal differences. Because the prevalence in men is so low it has a very low priority for funding studies of FMS in men.

                      Who knows? Maybe it is in part so much more prevalent in women (ten times more common) because they make so many more of the photocopies and are more often responsible for looking after the copiers in the office, especially in the 1950s to 1980s. It's only in the last 15 years that it has been formally recognized at all and only in the last ten that definitive biological differences have been found associated with the condition.
                      Last edited by Evan; 01-10-2007, 03:44 PM.
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                      • #41
                        Evan- slippery stuff

                        Evan.

                        I simply Googled ' FMS and silicon' as an after thought after bunging in my comments about tracing contacts from the past.

                        Nothing is easy to live with.

                        Norm

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                        • #42
                          Speaking of slippery stuff...and "safe" things that may turn out to be dangerous...does anybody know what the magic ingredient in Rain-X window treatment is? ( www.rainx.com )
                          ----------
                          Try to make a living, not a killing. -- Utah Phillips
                          Don't believe everything you know. -- Bumper sticker
                          Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. -- Will Rogers
                          There are lots of people who mistake their imagination for their memory. - Josh Billings
                          Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
                          Don't own anything you have to feed or paint. - Hood River Blackie

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                          • #43
                            I was going to mention that. It's... wait for it...
                            Polydimethylsiloxane.

                            They won't admit it on the MSDS but it says on the bottle (I have one in front of me) that it contains "siloxanes" and provides the CAS#. That happens to be 63148-62-9.

                            Super-Low Viscosity
                            (Volatile) Silicones

                            Viscosities:
                            0.65cSt Hexamethyldisiloxane (CAS# 107-46-0)
                            1cSt Octamethyltrisiloxane (CAS# 107-51-7)
                            1.5cSt Decamethyltetrasiloxane (CAS# 141-62-8) / Dodecamethylpentasiloxane (CAS# 141-63-9)
                            3cSt Polydimethylsiloxanes (63148-62-9) / Dodecamethylpentasiloxane (CAS# 141-63-9)

                            http://www.clearcoproducts.com/stand...silicones.html
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                            • #44
                              Evan: Would you consider using this to lub the clampping bar that holds down the back side of the saddle of your South Bend Lathe, or would you just use teflon grease? Gary P. Hansen
                              In memory of Marine Engineer Paul Miller who gave his life for his country 7-19-2010 Helmand Province, Afghanistan. Freedom is not free, it is paid for with blood.

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                              • #45
                                No way I would use silicone lubes on my machine tools. I might want to paint the machine or something I make on it someday. The Rain-X works great on snow plow blades though.
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