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  • Another power draw bar ---and a few other add-ons

    The recent thread about the power draw bar intrigued me so much I decided to add one to my new mill. ! was already "personalizing" it with all the things I like and enjoy having on my machines.

    The draw bar is VERY similar to Bob Warfields final design, though I did order the plans and used them as the basis. The major difference is in the mount, which seems to almost vary from machine to machine. Mine having the back gear lever positioned on the top and the tall -- bearing enclosure?, necessitated yet another design. Nothing complicated,--- the back gear and draw bar had a plastic dust cover over them, held with three 8mm screws, I replaced them with 3 standoffs to support the bottom plate and the rest went as usual. And, danged if that thing dont work like a champ!! Really nice.

    Then I'll include a shot of the mill with the other "personalized" touches...maybe somebody will like one of them and copy it. (thats how I get most of my ideas)

    The shower curtain chip deflector idea came from Lane --- then there are 2 gooseneck spot lites, and a catchall tray under the DRO read-out (another of Lanes), an air line drop with adjustable pressure blow gun, and of course,---the VFD.


    If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something........

  • #2
    Nice looking mill. Looks like you have built one of the CCS prints water cooled Browning replicas from a 10-22. Any better pictures of it or your other projects? Those are the kind of things that keep me working, seeing what others have built. Thanks for sharing.
    Jonathan P.

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    • #3
      Good looking mill in bright clean shop with a/c, very nice. I could stay in there for months, forward my mail.
      John

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      • #4
        Very cool, I love the shower curtain idea, I may have to implement that around all the bridgeports at work.

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        • #5
          Yep, A very nice looking mill set up. I also like the little "Machinegun" copy,
          and the curtains. Got a side view of how you attatch to the machine ?

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          • #6
            The gun is from the CCS prints --- Cecil Walker can take the honors for getting me started on that venture. I've also made the air cooled version and am presently trying to gather up the materials to make CCS's newest version, a "Ma Deuce"/M-2, also based on the Ruger 10-22's action.

            mochinist.....be advised, Lane tells me, after the fact, that a shower curtain and hot chips dont like each other---he changed his out to some cheapo naugahyde off the discount table at Hancocks and says it tolerates chips much better. That set-up really makes a difference when it comes clean up time---especially after a session with a fly cutter!!

            Uncle O, will try to take a shot of the attaching point and get it posted, ---the mill didnt have the chip guards as delivered and as I was attaching the back curtain I adapted the shower rods then....typically, its just stuff out of the scrap pile.


            Last edited by Bill Pace; 02-13-2007, 07:43 PM.
            If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something........

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            • #7
              Where do you get the plans for the power drawbar???Thanks.....Paul

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              • #8
                Bill you giving away all my secrets. Ha Ha. Looks good I saw those lights at wal-Mart for $ 7.00 the other day. Buy the way thinks for the castings.
                Every Mans Work Is A Portrait of Him Self
                http://sites.google.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES
                http://s178.photobucket.com/user/lan...?sort=3&page=1

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                • #9
                  Ok, I get to be the idiot again.

                  BillPace - Can you tell me what air pressure you feed to your power drawbar? I've had a hell of a time with mine. The design is a cool one, to be certain, but I've had to remake things a time or two. It always seems to boil down to the fact that I'm not delivering enough air to the "power" unit. Right now, I just hang the butterfly wrench on one of the bolts for the mill's ram swivel, and use it by itself. Don't get me wrong - that wrench works great on the drawbar, and I don't even need to use the spindle brake. I'm only giving the wrench about 55-60 psi, and I'm using a 4 or so CFM compressor.

                  [rant]
                  But I've abandoned the #$%^& drawbar plan for now. I have several improvements in the pipe for the next shot at it, but I have work to do with the machine for now. Changes will include the elimination of as much soldering as possible, so it will be easier to assemble and service. An easy way to do this is as [HSM member whose name I've forgotten] did, which was to use thicker plate for the wrench side of the plumbing, and run fittings out of the edges of the plate. I'm also going to try to fit larger hose between the valve and the wrench body, since it sure seems like I'm not getting enough air (even at 100 PSI) to sufficently power the wrench.

                  I have to say that, for the amount of accurate information provided in the plans, I'm sorry that I paid for them. I think the idea could have been conveyed in a paragraph, and I could have done a better job of figuring out real dimensions, without the now irritating suggestions of dimensions on the plan prints.

                  OTOH, everyone else seems to be just glowing about the plans. I swear, I feel like the only kid in the treehouse that doesn't know the secret handshake.

                  [/rant]

                  -Mark
                  The curse of having precise measuring tools is being able to actually see how imperfect everything is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mark, Sorry to hear you're still having problems. We've got to get this figured out for you.
                    Originally posted by Wirecutter
                    "...I'm only giving the wrench about 55-60 psi..."
                    I think that's too low. Kick it up to at least 90.
                    ...elimination of as much soldering as possible, so it will be easier to assemble and service. An easy way to do this is as [HSM member whose name I've forgotten] did, which was to use thicker plate...
                    That was me
                    I'm also going to try to fit larger hose between the valve and the wrench body...
                    1/4" plastic line should be plenty. Are you using 1/8" to feed the cylinder? If you use a larger line there that will kill the wrench.

                    I have to say that, for the amount of accurate information provided in the plans, I'm sorry that I paid for them. I think the idea could have been conveyed in a paragraph, and I could have done a better job of figuring out real dimensions, without the now irritating suggestions of dimensions on the plan prints.
                    Gotta agree with you there. I had to completely redraw the plans to match the dimensions of my wrench and incorporate my changes. That said, I'm sure the dimensions of the wrenches vary quite a bit depending on when/where exactly it was made. I don't think it would be fair to blame the author for it. In the end, Joe Vicar came up with the design so I feel he should get his $15 if you use it.


                    Let's do a bit of troubleshooting. Try pulling both lines off at the valve. Feed one side (forward or reverse - doesn't matter) with air (I used my blowgun which isn't a 'safety' type that limits pressure). Does it work properly? If so, reconnect the feed side only then try it using the valve to feed. If it still works OK, then the problem is with the venting. Make sure the 2 valves are operating correctly (mine weren't - I pulled a chunk of crap out of one). If you made a gasket, make sure you didn't miss any cut-outs and that it aligns with the valve body correctly.

                    If bypassing the valve assy. doesn't make any difference, then the problem must be at the wrench side. If you can, try disconnecting the cylinder lines and temp. plugging their holes. Does it now work? If so the lines feeding the cylinder are bypassing too much air. If you're using 1/8" line, it would seem odd that you would have to, but try adding some extra restrictions. If your line is bigger, use 1/8".

                    If blocking the cylinder has no effect, then it has to be something with the wrench or plate. Be sure the clearance cut in the plate (that's not on the plans) for the airmotor armature is deep enough. If you made a gasket, again be sure it's correct. I'm sure you have but double check that the airline fittings are feeding the airmotor ports correctly and that there's no way it could bypass from one to the other.

                    That's all the troubleshooting I can come up with at the moment. Run thru it and see what you come up with. If you still can't get it to work, report back with the results and we'll scratch the head some more.

                    Best of luck,

                    Marc -

                    Opps, almost forgot. Paul you can find the plans here:
                    http://home.insightbb.com/~joevicar3/cheap_drawbar.htm
                    The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Marc M ----
                      I apologize for omitting your influence in the making up of my unit, after all it was your thread that started it, and I definitely got the idea of the thicker valve plate from your pix.

                      Geez, Mark (Wirecutter) you are having problems! Marc seems to have covered what I would have suggested. I think I will stress that the psi is gonna have to be cranked way up, remember youre bleeding some of that off to actuate the cylinder....though it sounds as if you went the soldering route? with the tiny copper lines? if so that shouldnt bleed too much. I hooked mine up through a pressure regulator and was playing with the psi settings, and it was quickly apparent that it needed over 100psi to begin to function properly. I used 1/4" (and 3/8") ice maker line from Home Depot (not my first choice, but theyre close) to take advantage of the easy connectability, and I think I'm on the ragged edge of that --1/4"-- being to large to feed the cylinder, though my set-up seems to work fine.

                      I did have a problem with my original design of the valve plate....I had just the teeeniest misalignment on one of the drilled holes causing a constant air bleed through the vent holes,--- ended up with the jewelers loupe poring over it to find, so as Marc says, double check that. Oh, and I also had a chip get stuck to one of the o-rings that gave me a fit for a while, finding it.

                      While I didnt follow the plans very much either, I dont begrudge the few bucks, and I DID use them and they ARE what started us on the path to building this neat little tool. Seems us HSM'ers have a mental block on following plans anyway.......
                      If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something........

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill Pace
                        Marc M ----
                        I apologize for omitting your influence in the making up of my unit, after all it was your thread that started it, and I definitely got the idea of the thicker valve plate from your pix.
                        No problem, Bill. I ran across the drawbar 6 months ago and stuck the link in my projects folder then immediately forgot about it. When Bob posted his on here the lightbulb went off. So in the end, Bob started it!

                        ...it was quickly apparent that it needed over 100psi to begin to function properly. I used 1/4" (and 3/8") ice maker line from Home Depot (not my first choice, but theyre close) to take advantage of the easy connectability, and I think I'm on the ragged edge of that --1/4"-- being to large to feed the cylinder, though my set-up seems to work fine.
                        The 1/4" to the cylinder is eating up some of the 100psi. You might get better performance out of the wrench if you stick some restrictions in each of the lines to the cylinder. The best method would be to stick a check valve on each side. I played around with the idea but haven't been able to find a suitable spring.

                        The small 1/8" line is commonly used in automotive air shocks, both aftermarket and OEM systems. You can get miles of the stuff at any junkyard off Caddys and Olds for sure, probably others. They also have nice 12v air compressors (low volume/high pressure) w/integral 12v dump valve in them that are great for all sorts of projects. You can find air shock line kits at most auto parts stores for $10 or so if you don't have a self serve type junkyard around . The local home center (Menards) had the 1/8" brass fittings in stock.


                        Seems us HSM'ers have a mental block on following plans anyway.......
                        It's not that we have a mental block, we're 'improving' the original design to better fit our individual needs.

                        Marc-
                        The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Marc M
                          Mark, Sorry to hear you're still having problems. We've got to get this figured out for you.
                          Yeah, I hesitated before posting. Nobody likes to hear a whiner.

                          Originally posted by Marc M
                          I think that's too low. Kick it up to at least 90.
                          When I had the full drawbar kit assembled, I kicked it up to over 100 with no luck. It's just the "max PSI" warning on the wrench that had me worried. I always seemed to get a power unit that worked great in one direction, but had no ass at all in the other so it wouldn't work reliably.

                          Originally posted by Marc M
                          That was me
                          Sorry - I was too lazy at the time to research the proper origin, but I believe in credit where credit is due.

                          I'm using .250" hose between valve and wrench, and that tiny .125" stuff to the cylinder. Cylinder actuation seems fine, too. It's assertive without being too twitchy.

                          I have to admit, I think it's fair that Vicar get's his money for the plans (or more to the point, the idea), but in retrospect, I could have been saved a bit of cussing if I was given an outline of the idea, part sources, and a crude drawing of what was to be made. Accurate part numbers and sources, along with a good description of the idea and without the dimensioned drawings would be worth the money to me. (Sometimes, locating and ordering parts can be a real PITA)

                          Most troubleshooting I've done so far has involved the alignment of the holes. The critical alignment is where the 3/8 fittings "break in" and meet up with both the wrench and valve body. Oh, and yeah, I discovered the need for milling the armature clearance the first time I tried to assemble. After that time, it was not a problem getting it in there - I remade that part a few times during my struggles. It seemed silly, but it doesn't really take any time to make, and I've got a bunch of .250" 6061 plate around from another job. (In the process, I discovered a few places where error can creep in and ruin the show. Of course.) I did make my own gasket out of bike innertube, which is good because it's a lot more robust and forgiving. I've checked for all the right holes, too.

                          Anyway, the biggest improvement came when I thought of the resistance in the 2 5-foot lengths of .250" hose. I trimmed them back to about 3" each and tried it again, and it was better. Still not good enough. It was then that I thought to put the wrench back together and make sure it worked, since I'd never done that. I had to get new screws and remake the anti-rotation pin, but that's okay. When I did that, the wrench turned out to be a very peppy unit, and like I said, works just great on the drawbar as just a wrench. I've even considered getting one of those self-retracting hangers for factory air tools, and just hang the wrench over the mill. It's still a big improvement over my little ratcheting .750" wrench and the rawhide mallet to unstick the drawbar.

                          When I get time this weekend, I'm going to take the advice of doing part-by-part troubleshooting again. I've tested the valve part several times, and it works great. I just don't seem to be getting the wrench part right. I did manage to do a test and verify that I could use a .500" plate. That way, I can run the fittings out the edge of the plate, and eliminate the soldering. (which makes multiple assembly/disassembly steps tedious.) If I go with .500" or thicker plate, I'll have to add supplementary springs (like everyone else) to get the unit to retract off the drawbar correctly. I'll also have to choose and order more fittings. When this is all said and done, I'll probably have quite a selection of brass pipe fittings.

                          I'll check the venting, too. I've concentrated mostly on air input rather than output so far.

                          Listen, thanks for the help, Marc. Time away from it will give me the patience to try yet again. Oh, and one question - did you ever operate the wrench before turning it into a drawbar power unit? I'm curious how much zip it's supposed to lose when the valve is remoted for this project. I expect some, but not so much that the silly thing won't operate. Thanks again.

                          -Mark
                          The curse of having precise measuring tools is being able to actually see how imperfect everything is.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mark,

                            Oh, and one question - did you ever operate the wrench before turning it into a drawbar power unit? I'm curious how much zip it's supposed to lose when the valve is remoted for this project.
                            I did try the wrench beforehand. In comparison, if I blocked one side of the cylinder, it didn't appear to lose much power. With the cylinder connected, the amount of air that bypasses the motor does make a noticable difference, but not enough to degrade performance significantly.
                            I'm using .250" hose between valve and wrench, and that tiny .125" stuff to the cylinder.
                            Since you used the small tubing, we can eliminate that circuit as a source of trouble.
                            When I had the full drawbar kit assembled, I kicked it up to over 100 with no luck. It's just the "max PSI" warning on the wrench that had me worried.
                            Don't be too concerned. I've always ran my compressor at 120 without an issue. By the time you run thru all the plumbing and the airline, you lose quite a bit. I worked at a semi-trailer repair shop for 15 years. The compressor was set to 140 there. The mechanics used their air tools all day, every day and they lasted for years. Even if running over 120 caused premature wear, the amount it's used in this application pretty much negates any issues.
                            I always seemed to get a power unit that worked great in one direction, but had no ass at all in the other...
                            It's been my experience that impacts and air ratchets are designed to have more power in reverse than forward. It's always harder to get them off than to put 'em in, especially after a few years.
                            I did make my own gasket out of bike innertube, which is good because it's a lot more robust and forgiving.
                            It's that 'forgiving' part that concerns me. I might be completely wrong on this but I'd be a bit concerned about using that for gasket material. Because it is so soft, I wonder if it's compressing and allowing the air to sneak by. I got lucky and my wrench came with 2 gaskets. In a pinch, a cereal box can provide usable gasket material.

                            Let us know what you find Mark.

                            Marc -
                            The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by

                              Marc -

                              Opps, almost forgot. Paul you can find the plans here:
                              [url
                              http://home.insightbb.com/~joevicar3/cheap_drawbar.htm[/url]
                              Thanks Marc,I'll check it out looks like a nice little project.....Paul

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