"Grizzly" I Am Not a Happy Camper!

[cybor462]

Ok. I know another complaint but I know there have been HSM'rs asking about Grizzly items.
1. I own many Grizzly items, both my lathe and mill are from them.
2. I have bought many tools and add ons and I am almost satisfied with most.
3. Now to number 3

I recently bought $600+ worth of vises and other tooling a couple months ago. The vise in question is as follows,
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G7066

I had not used it nor really checked it out when I got it a couple months ago. I buy loads of stuff that I decide I will use at a later time when I get a few bucks put a side.

I went to use this vise the other day and WOOA! First it was suppose to have keys, It did not, then it had graduation marks on the base as it is a swivel base. But it has no reference mark! What good is a graduated scale with no reference mark. I know that does not make it unusable but it speaks to lack of quality if they forgot to put the reference mark on.
Then while searching for the reference mark I spotted a half dozen chunks missing from the machined base OD. It was scary looking. I did not use this thing.

I called Grizzly and explained to them what I had and the fellow told me well all we can do is send you another. That is perfect I said. I told him they needed to pick this up as it weighs 100+ lbs (only a guess) and I was not paying to ship a defect back. He then told me to ship it to them and they will pay the shipping or repay me for it.

Ok now I was becoming angry. Why you ask? Well, each time I was told this I only got 50% of what it cost me to ship it to them. Ok for a couple bucks here and there but not a 100 lb item. I asked him why was I never refunded fully for the return shipping of defective goods. I was put on hold and he came back and told me they will send a UPS pick up. He never answered my question.

Remember Grizzly ships nothing for free when you buy their stuff.

I just wanted to put this out there for those who have been asking about Grizzly. I may not buy add ons from them anymore. I like their machines but there tooling leaves much to be desired.

To follow up on the Enco return I have... I called them and they already shipped a new chuck to me and offered a UPS pick up without me saying a word. This speaks to their service. They send this stuff to me free shipping all the time and offer totally free shipping for problem stuff.

Grizzly gets a thumbs down.

Enco gets a thumbs up x 2

[lazlo]

To follow up on the Enco return I have... I called them and they already shipped a new chuck to me and offered a UPS pick up without me saying a word. This speaks to their service. They send this stuff to me free shipping all the time and offer totally free shipping for problem stuff.

I'm glad that worked out for you Cybor (is that your real name? )!

[cybor462]

I'm glad that worked out for you Cybor (is that your real name? )!

Which name. Camper or Happy!

[oldtiffie]

Chinese vyces

Deleted/erased-out

[hdj80]

Seems you had a rough trot all round that absolutely should not have happened Cybor - as on the face of it, that vyce seems a nice item.

I have a 3" 3-way vyce - see (bottom left):
http://www.hareandforbes.com.au/samp...orking/29.html

Only problem was that I had to spend about a day just "easing" it (file/scrape/"Wet & Dry" paper-on-glass plate etc.) to get it "just so" to my liking. It was inclined to "stick" a bit. Oh, and I had a "zero/reference" mark, but had to "scrub" it and put on a new one.

But it really is top class now - smooth and accurate, locks easily and does not move when locking or locked or under cutting load in the mill.

And it is a Chinese "Vertex".

Also have a "Vertex" 4" precision vyce ("Vertex" again) - same web page (bottom right).

Had similar problems with index marks. Vyce jaws were distorted and needed surface grinding (didn't mind as I'd have done it anyway). Jaw faces (where hardened jaws fit) were slightly out of "straight" and perpendicular - just needed a "lick" with and end-mill after checking mill "tram" (of course).

I am very satisfied with it now.

As I've said in other posts, I almost always have to "adjust" or "touch up" something on my Chinese (usually "Vertex") equipment, which I agree should not be needed - and after that they really are all that I need for my level of work in my workshop. I can't speak for others as regards their needs and preferences as they are "personal" matters.

There is the inevitable "lift" in the moving jaw when tightening, (very little really) but if its a "fussy" job that doesn't need a heavy cut, I counter the "lift" with a thin hardened straight edge as follows (posted on previous thread) and it works a treat.


My supplier is only 26 miles away (45Km). I go personally and check what I am interested in on the counter. I have no problem with "send backs" or "replacements" at all.

I always get "Trade" discounts (10 - 20% off "list" prices). I can't comment on the "who pays for costs of returns" etc. as any time I need to return something, I do it in person and sort it out right there and then.

I realise from many posts that some members have long drives/ways to go to get to their suppliers in person and it is not practical to drive - especially during "working/shop hours".

I am retired so its no problem for me.

Wife doesn't mind as we always have a very nice lunch on the way out or home - and she enjoys the drive and the outing - as do I.

OldTiffie,

I was asking my local tooling supplier - Whitelaws at Mansfield (Brisbane) about Vertex the other day. It seems some of their stuff is Taiwanese (ROC) and others high quality Chicom (PRC). They are not manufacturers as such but marketers.
BTW Whitelaws are great to deal with but since you are coming from Laidley way they extra distance wouldn't be worth it.

Is your Vertex vice one of the Anglock versions or the K style?

Craig (this is my real name)
Brisbane
BTW Is Old Tiffie a reference to the Typhoon as that is the only thing I know of that was referred to as Tiffie?

[oldtiffie]

Vertex

Deleted/erased-out

[Swarf&Sparks]

HDJ80
do your suppliers "Whitelaws at Mansfield" deal online?
a google came up empty
I'm always interested in tooling and material suppliers in Oz.
Rgds, Lin (WA)

[J Tiers]

So buy from a GOOD vendor. Sure you spend more, but in general you DO get a better product.

As Grizzly IS apparently sending a UPS call tag, it seems they ARE taking care of you. They did that for me also. Enco uniformly refused to do that for me, as I have mentioned (totally infuriating some folks).

However, I have found that NEITHER Grizzly NOR ENCO is worth buying that sort of stuff from.

Even a vendor that WILL stand behind trash is not improving what they sell. They are just giving you another free roll of the dice, perhaps hoping the next defect won't be obvious enough to generate a return.

I have had to ship back nearly everything I have bought from EITHER one, for massive, function-defeating defects. I have totally given up on them both as it appears they are actually not suppliers, but in fact some sort of gambling houses.

The "last straw" items were a height gage (ENCO) that appeared to have been made by blind squirrels chewing the parts from defective metal, and a level (Grizzly) with a base so non-flat that it didn't even stand steadily on a flat surface.

I sent both back, and washed my hands. BOTH vendors probably put the pieces back in stock.

The moral of the story is to buy decent stuff from a reputable first-line vendor. There are just a few of them now.

Grizzly is obviously not a first-line vendor like J&L, MSC, etc. So one should NOT EXPECT the best, or maybe even consistent "good" stuff. YOU are apparently the ONLY QC department. I am not always sure that the good folks at Grizzly actually know what the thing they are selling is really 'for".......

Lest anyone should point out that MSC owns ENCO, I would remind them that ENCO ISN'T MSC, it is their "low-line outlet". Again, YOU seem to be at least part of their QC department.
I will admit that ENCO does seem to be a half-peg above Grizzly, in that they appear to actually know what they are selling.......

But MSC itself has never shipped me ANY junk, it has all been good, just as expected.

Even Victor Machinery, who DO sell a lot of ENCO-type chinese stuff (and tell you so) was quite embarrassed and quickly replaced a substandard item with a good one at their expense.

[lazlo]

Enco uniformly refused to do that for me, as I have mentioned (totally infuriating some folks).

JT, I was the original poster in that sub-topic, when I mentioned that Enco always happily pays for return shipping on items with which I'm not satisfied. Several others have indicated that Enco pays for return shipping on their items as well.

I didn't see anyone infuriated on that thread, except you

But MSC itself has never shipped me ANY junk, it has all been good, just as expected.

MSC is Enco's parent company. The MSC catalog is a superset of the Enco catalog, so MSC sells all the same Chicom stuff that Enco does. In fact, a lot of times when I order stuff from Enco, it comes in a box market "MSC Industrial" on the outside.

I think what you're trying to say is "you get what you pay for" -- no arguments there...

[pcarpenter]

I would offer a couple of points-- often "graduated" (I use the term loosely since the graduations on a vise base are no way to properly gauge an angle for a machine setup anyway) vise bases do not have numbers on them since they end up mounted differently on different machines. Zero on my machine may end up being 45 degrees on yours since you may have to mount the swivel base at a different angle to use a pair of differently spaced T-slots. I think it was Russ who posted the same thing about a Groz universal swivel table he bought, a while back which had no numbers.

I have a collection of milling vises of different sorts. Some have numbers some don't. Some of those which have numbers start the numbers with the vise base at an angle and some assume it mounted square. I don't know how they can *assume* anything.

Regarding return shipping...we keep hearing about the cheap tooling and a few sad stories about how the vendor did not pay to have it sent back. I have to ask why people would expect a vendor that sold an item for a few bucks profit to spend twice that on shipping it back? From some of the complaints here, it seems that its often because someone had (perhaps) unreasonable expectations in the first place.

The spin index discussed here recently is a great example. It was pretty much like every other cheap spin index and an item I wouldn't make for $30 and yet it was deemed to be a ripoff by an unwary shopper who apparently (from the comments in the posting) had never even looked at these before. It was not designed for the purpose the buyer had in mind and probably woud not meet expectations as a result. A $30 spin index was included with a (don't quote me here) $160 set of import collets and the buyer somehow thought he was getting a $160something spin indexer? These combinations show up in the Enco sale flyers semi-monthly for years. I maintain that if its junk and *not worth the money paid* (less than $30 in the "kit" in this case) it should go back at the vendor's expense. If, on the other hand, the buyer just did not do enough shopping before ordering and was expecting a $160 spin indexer with the $160 set of collets for around $160, that should not be the liability of the vendor. The rest of us just end up paying for that mistake. If Enco looses $20 shipping on a $30 spin index....look for prices to go up or free shipping to disappear. No business can continue things that way very long. Those of us who think that $30 is a fair price for a cheap spin indexer for the purposes it was actually designed may not be able to get one for that any more.

Paul

[J Tiers]

Never having compared everything, I was under the impression that the two "overlapped", but were not identical. They DO share warehousing, so the BOX may say MSC...... doesn't mean they are "the same as".....

In other words, the ENCO line includes low line stuff that is not available in the MSC catalog.

And the MSC catalog has tons of stuff that is not in the ENCO catalog.

It appears we are discussing the type accessories that are in the "not included in MSC" category.

Since I only order thru the MSC catalog, I probably no longer see the ENCO low-line stuff. But I don't have the money to buy cheap stuff, its too expensive for me.

[cybor462]

I would offer a couple of points-- often "graduated" (I use the term loosely since the graduations on a vise base are no way to properly gauge an angle for a machine setup anyway) vise bases do not have numbers on them since they end up mounted differently on different machines. Zero on my machine may end up being 45 degrees on yours since you may have to mount the swivel base at a different angle to use a pair of differently spaced T-slots. I think it was Russ who posted the same thing about a Groz universal swivel table he bought, a while back which had no numbers.





The spin index discussed here recently is a great example. It was pretty much like every other cheap spin index and an item I wouldn't make for $30 and yet it was deemed to be a ripoff by an unwary shopper who apparently (from the comments in the posting) had never even looked at these before. It was not designed for the purpose the buyer had in mind and probably woud not meet expectations as a result. A $30 spin index was included with a (don't quote me here) $160 set of import collets and the buyer somehow thought he was getting a $160something spin indexer? These combinations show up in the Enco sale flyers semi-monthly for years. I maintain that if its junk and *not worth the money paid* (less than $30 in the "kit" in this case) it should go back at the vendor's expense. If, on the other hand, the buyer just did not do enough shopping before ordering and was expecting a $160 spin indexer with the $160 set of collets for around $160, that should not be the liability of the vendor. The rest of us just end up paying for that mistake. If Enco looses $20 shipping on a $30 spin index....look for prices to go up or free shipping to disappear. No business can continue things that way very long. Those of us who think that $30 is a fair price for a cheap spin indexer for the purposes it was actually designed may not be able to get one for that any more.

Paul

Paul.. I am the poster of that indexer and the vise thread. Not to nitpick but I feel when someone comments about what another said and gets it totally out of context the original poster (me) should correct the reply.

As far as the indexer goes..I totally admitted it was my fault by jumping into what I thought was a great deal. When it arrived I quickly discovered the old cleche If it looks too good to be true......

I did not know it came with a (real) full set of collets and thought I was getting a better tool than what was delivered for 169.00. I have bought tooling before with a set of collets and what I got was 5. I think the set in question had 35. I sent it back but never did I ask for free return shipping, quite the contrary. Others on this board commented that I should make Enco pay the return freight and I quickly said it was my fault so I would pay it.
I defended Enco by saying I buy much from them and never pay shipping. No big deal to pay for my mistake. I never expected Enco to "take on the liability to pay for the return shipping" as you put it.

To correct you about the vise... I stated the index marks as just a way to explain the quality of the vise. If the maker puts index marks on and then forgets to put a reference point it speaks to the poor workmanship of the vise. I even spelled that out in my post saying I knew it did not effect the vises usefulness just trying to use text to draw a picture. The craters on the other hand did effect the ability to use the vise so it went back. And YES I expected Grizzly to pay for that as I paid all but 200.00 plus 50.00 shipping (did get a couple other small tools) for them to ship me a defective tool I expected them to make it right. And they did.

So often on this board readers jump with a he said this and that attitude while totally mis-quoting what the original author said or implying the like as you have. Then the gloves come off and eventually the post gets locked because things get out of hand.

Not a problem for me, but it seems some here look for a way to stir up trouble. I do not imply this of you but it does happen.
I personally appreciate all the help I get from this board and thank all for participating with that. It really helps when you can get tech help from those that have been there and done that.

I am sure you meant no ill will but it might be wise to be sure of what a poster actually wrote before replying and using the words of someone else or implying their intended meaning and using them totally out of context. Every post I read I learn something from. I use this board to learn. I make mistakes (too many at times) and will never blame anyone else for them.

Again I just want to make it clear what I said and meant.

And now I will shut up!

[pcarpenter]

I think I follow what you are saying, but still have to question why the postings about (for example) the spin indexer when there was no real problem with what you were sent. Certainly after some replies by others you came to realize that it was not what you were after....but that came after complaints that the product was inferior. Again, the key is to know what you are after before ordering.

In the case of the spin indexer, posting to complain about the product seems to imply a product problem when the real issue is not shopping carefully. I'm sorry you didn't get what you were after, but if that post was not a complaint, then what *was* the point?

I guess my only point is that sometimes the key to happiness with a product is having reasonable expectations of what the product should be or do. Spin indexes, for example, are typically not for milling use like the lever type indexer you bought to replace it. That's no reason to berate the spin index...it is what it is and there are intended uses for which it might just have been completely adequate.

I re-read your post on the vise and consider myself castigated as it appears by the term "reference" mark you are referring to the single point on the vise base and not "reference numbers" on the swivel base. I hope you will accept my apology. I do still maintain that careful shopping before ordering is probably still in order as it appears on the Grizzly web site that there are *no* marks of any sort whatsoever on the vise base or swivel in the enlarged product photo. I would guess that the absence of the reference mark to which you refer would allow you to put "zero" in whatever location fits your installation by scribing a single line (for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post)....so perhaps this is a feature rather than a bug..but maybe I am giving them too much credit. Typical angle setups that involve any accuracy at all, though, won't be a function of marks on the base.

As for "keys", perhaps they promised them to you verbally, but again they are not in the description or the pictures. With that in mind, did they cheat you or were your expectations out of line...leading to unhappiness? It's been my observation that keys don't come with most vises (even better quality vises) as keys are supposed to be cut to fit the machine you will use it on. You may also find that they may be of more limited value on a vise with an attached swivel base.

On the other side of the coin (expectation wise), casting voids like you mentioned with the universal vise are in no way something that should be expected in my opinion. Quality of an item is not determined by how much we buy from a vendor. It is more a function of the price of an item. While you can argue that we get what we pay for, I don't think even a cheap vise should have missing metal.

Paul

[J Tiers]

Quality of an item is not determined by how much we buy from a vendor. It is more a function of the price of an item. While you can argue that we get what we pay for, I don't think even a cheap vise should have missing metal.

Paul

True..... Even marketing departments can get out-of-bounds on that issue.

The real answer is a statement that seems to be a logical fallacy:

"A cheaper version shouldn't be 'worse', but a more expensive version should be 'better' "

I take that to mean that a cheaper item should, if it is a vise, be generally fit for the purpose. It should hold an item in the jaws, and be capable of being clamped down, set to an angular degree, etc.

if it fails to fulfill the basic requirements, it is defective. However, it CERTAINLY NEED NOT have the best fit and finish, it need not be as accurate, nor perhaps as easy to use as a more expensive item. it may even require some finishing before use in some applications.

A top of the line item should do all that, and do it very well. In addition, it should have the best fit and finish, the highest accuracy, ease of use, etc. No user finishing needed.

A vise should close smoothly, have accurate closely closing jaws that are square to the base, etc. Good handle, etc, you see the point....

I don't think that blowholes in the casting of a cheap vise or spindex, or whatever should be a cause for comment. They are gonna happen, they are a fit and finish item, and if they don't affect basic function, you got what you paid for.

[IOWOLF]

"Grizzly" I Am Not a Happy Camper!

It seems you rarely are.


This is not an attack,it is a observation.