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  • #46
    Reflexion on the Cause of This Debate.

    Perhaps it's beneficial to ask ourselves why this is a sensitive issue between two normally good neighbours with more in common than not. One of the differences is that here in Canada, we've enjoyed a much lower per capita hand gun murder rate than our neighbours to the south (this is even more the case in the UK actually). Unfortunately, for the past several years, there has been a growing flood of illegally imported handguns, including "mods" into Canada from the US with an associated spike in murders, mainly gang related. Unfortunately also, there is a growing number of "caught-in-the crossfire" type deaths and even pre-mediated "hits" involving children.

    There are those who have been heard to say that it is, therefore, our "lax" approach to border security that's the problem.

    Some of these same people then take it a little further and "tell" us to then arm ourselves for protection, obviously opening the door to the perception? belief? reality? or misperception? that "the Americans" are once again trying to force their beliefs and standards on others (us in this case) backed up by - you guessed it - firepower. If you think about it, a pretty typical, human-nature reaction to any similar situation involving any two or more distinct societies or countries. We're all awfully similar in that regard aren't we!

    There are those who look a little more carefully at this hand gun "in-flow" problem and say "aha, but this is not the cause of the problem." And, to be fair to all, there is no easy answer to the cause or causes of this, the "real" problem. In fact, it has become so bad - as we see it - that it is one of the prime motivators in the recent decision to begin arming our border guards along the US border.

    These changes for the worse represent a pretty radical and highly troubling change in our society that very few, I'd like to think, would say is okay or right. Problem is, the source country for nearly all of these guns has been proven time and again and, as in an free country, this gets reported in the news with rather obvious results.

    It's human nature, that our frustrations often get expressed seemingly "out of the blue" but I submit that it may be possible that my fellow Canadian whose comment "triggered" (couldn't resist that) this debate may in fact have been influenced by the growing alarm being felt here in Canada about this very hot-button issue. I can say honestly that I do understand him in this context.

    My thoughts anyway,


    • #47
      Nice job Doc! Either you are fully confident in your machining abilities or you got much bigger cajones than me

      I drug out my Model 60 as my first engraving effort some 30 years ago. Now it's a carried concealed for two reasons ! No one ever gets to see it. The engraving job really sucked although at the time I thought I was ready to go to work for Winston Churchill or Lynton McKenzie !!

      I saw one 3" tube that I really liked, it was on a J frame with round butt. If I ever pick up a longer barrelld J frame round butt I may consider your project. First I'll have to grow some big ones !!
      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      Thank you to our families of soldiers, many of whom have given so much more then the rest of us for the Freedom we enjoy.

      It is true, there is nothing free about freedom, don't be so quick to give it away.


      • #48
        There are enough laws on the books in any country to live safely if they were enforced. I personally am from the United States although I currently reside in China. If you want to talk gun laws I have experienced both extremes. Personally I'll take the second amendment any day. Anyone who wants to blame our freedom to bear arms as problems for gun deaths in their country or ours for that matter is blinded by the fact that maybe the real problem is personal responsibility, not from the government but from family upbringing. Yes, there are always a few bad apples in the bunch but that is what the laws are for. Anybody who trusts their government to protect them are the biggest fools or have their head buried in the sand the deepest. I am no gun nut, but will not let ANYONE take mine from me. I also think that while my government is nowhere near perfect, it is one of the best systems out there. Do I trust it. Hell no, no more then I trust yours! One thing I have learned living in different countries. When you get right down to the basics we all want the same thing. To be safe and happy. Some people just want their hands held more then others. Sorry, but my family gets to hold mine, so I can't help you there! I'll stand by my first statement, There is a lot more precision machining in this post compared to making a wagon!

        There I'll get off my soapbox!


        • #49
          Please recall when replying to Evan that he, along with some others on the forum, can be expected to have certain opinions. This, because he is a US citizen who opted to move to and stay in a foreign country. Obviously he had various reasons, some of which he has explained here.

          But, why is it a surprise that he is not a great fan of the US and US policies?

          Likewise, some others who are citizens of countries as far away as it is possible to get, in some cases, also do not express "delight" with policies and laws in the US.

          In neither case is it any of their business, really, so why get upset about their opinions? To a large degree, their opinions are irrelevant with regard to internal US policies. They do naturally, or have chosen to, live under a different set of laws in a foreign country, and do not participate in US politics or the legal system.

          Their opinions are their own problem, and do not make them lesser people, reduce their intellectual capacity, or cause their shop projects to be of lower quality. They need not cause any strife here.

          So let it be.....

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan


          • #50
            What we've had in this thread is people questioning the wisdom of what others have posted. I question the wisdom of that.


            • #51
              But describing our government as "totalitarian" isn't an attempt to inflame and bash?

              -Gosh, I wonder who brought up the concept of "totalitarianism" in this thread.
              Try post number 12 Doc. I didn't bring it up.

              Seastar said

              I'm sorry you live in a totalitarian state and glad that I don't.

              It is a question of appropriateness as the effect of posting such information can not only result in the direct censorship of this website in some countries but might even place somebody in jeopardy.
              -That's horsesh*t and you know it, Evan.
              Far from it I'm afraid. Australia is making available free internet filtering software as we "speak" to all who want it and are beginning ISP level filtering trials in weeks or months. Pro gun web sites will be on the list.

              This isn't about gun control or the right to bear arms. It's about the appropriateness of this thread on this forum. This is something you brought up regarding my posting of a fabrication project and I am arguing that this thread is much less appropriate than my thread is. My thread won't result in this BBS being placed on international filter lists and doesn't contain content deemed to be illegal or undesirable in some allied countries.
              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here


              • #52
                Well......... I'm full !


                • #53
                  Doc and Evan



                  • #54
                    Now that's funny.
                    Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here


                    • #55

                      I apologize for bashing Canada!
                      I respect my neighbor to the North (38 miles north of me just now).
                      I promise I won't invade or send any guns your way.
                      I did not mean to start a flame session.
                      I was offended by the post and overreacted.

                      Doc and all the others--
                      I'm still glad I live where I can build and shoot military 30 and 50 caliber machineguns and cannons and collect and shoot all sorts of firearms - a lifelong hobby.

                      I enjoyed the original post. Fine workmanship.
                      I cut it off twice and it's still too short!


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Seastar
                        I apologize for bashing Canada!
                        I don't know why you're the one apologizing Seastar

                        I'm still glad I live where I can build and shoot military 30 and 50 caliber machineguns and cannons
                        Is it legal in the US to build a Class 3 (fully automatic) weapon? Do you have to use pre MAY, 1986 parts?

                        I'd love to build the D&E Gatling gun, but with a power feed mechanism
                        "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."


                        • #57
                          Jump thru some Batf hoops and pay your $200 fee and do it.


                          • #58

                            I'm interested to know how you centered the barrel in the lathe for facing and crowning. What surface did you use as a reference for indicating the barrel?


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by IOWOLF
                              Jump thru some Batf hoops and pay your $200 fee and do it.
                              I know you can do that for pre '86 weapons Wolfie, but I just wanted to confirm that the BATF "Form 4" applies to building a new Class 3 weapon?''
                              "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."


                              • #60
                                a very interesting thread, i must admit. Doc, beautiful work on the pistol. i also liked the last one you did.

                                as to "building" a "fully automatic Class III machinegun" in the U.S., that is illegal no matter what forms you fill out unless you are a licensed manufacturer. you can PURCHASE a pre-1986 machinegun after filling out the required paperwork and paying $200, but you can not BUILD one (meaning manufacture) as a private citizen.

                                you can legally build suppressors and shorten rifle and shotgun barrels to restricted lengths as long as you again fill out the forms and pay the $200. i have never read a federal law stating a legal minimum pistol barrel length. not to say one doesn't exist.

                                andy b.

                                ps - Doc, my niece's first Class III exposure was a suppressed select-fire M-11. she was all of 8 years old.
                                Last edited by andy_b; 08-23-2007, 02:35 PM.
                                The danger is not that computers will come to think like men - but that men will come to think like computers. - some guy on another forum not dedicated to machining