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  • SouthBend9
    replied
    UK ? In USA ?

    Why can't we get more UK made over here. Wal MART attitude of Case studies. Price? You can't believe the pressure that Walmark puts on MFG.s On Price . Sourcing is always jamming the Chinnese stuff on the Engineering shop operations. Buy the mold from China they are half the cost ? Till you have to totally redo it. And what does that cost? Well it cost alot but guess what there is no money in the budget for tooling to repair . Sourcing get a promotion and Enginneering & shop operations gets the Shaft.
    How many guys can help out on and get most of you work from Soucing decision on Price. Do they beat you up in price?
    Oh lets a do the right thing for management send everything over there and put our logo on it so we don't have to think . Just make big bucks

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  • Charlie Rose
    replied
    [" but I don't ever recall ever seeing anything "made in Canada".

    I worked at a Naval Weapons Station a few years ago and we needed a new cnc lathe.We got a nice, easy to run one that was "Made in Canada" it was a "Standard Modern"

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  • Oldbrock
    replied
    brockley1

    Bob W Standard Modern lathes made in Canada ARE dam good. Had a shop full of them in a High School before the Government decided that training machinists was some other country's job and we would just import them and put our guys on welfare. Most of my ex students either own their own shops or are running someone else's shop, Some are machining or mechanics or welders but most seem to be in one trade or another. Sorry I'm ranting on about useful programs being cut in favor of basket making and such. Peter

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  • oldtiffie
    replied
    Price

    Originally posted by J Tiers
    ...................................
    ................................

    I have no problem paying for quality, even US quality, it it IS quality. I prefer NOT to shop on price for many things (but I'll buy chip brushes from HF if I am going past a store, and need some).
    .................................
    ...............................
    Eventually, the people are made to forget the connection between price and quality. Quality usually costs, but cost does not guarantee quality. People get used to the idea of same exact item, lower cost, and begin to buy on price if they can.
    .....................................
    ....................................
    Jerry.

    That was as good job/post as I've seen in a long time as regards "reality in the market-place".

    I will take it a little further.

    It would be instructive to see with whom the beneficial ownership and holdings of the share registers of those companies now are.

    Likewise, who the Directors/CEO's of those companies are and what holdings they have in that and similar companies (ie on multiple Boards and/or multiple holdings).

    And what "incentives", "options", "remuneration" and "freebies" and "holdings" they and other executives have.

    Its all about "stock prices" and what "analysts" think and report. So its all about maximising short term profit.

    They would have no hesitation in "restructuring" the company or "making better use of resources" and "economies of scale", "contract/source it out", "change direction" etc. etc.

    Its their "skins" (read: "interests") they are looking after - not yours or anyone else's.

    "People" are a very high cost item and recouping an "adequate return on investment/capital/borrowings" etc. is quite difficult.

    They would sell the company or its name or "good-will" as quick as a flash and then "move on to the next opportunity etc. etc. ".

    Its a "bean-counter" exercise.

    So, where do you fit in?

    You are only a means to an end (profit) whether you are selling or buying.

    If you are an employee (call it "independent contractor/consultant" if you like) you are seen/regarded as having very high associated and attendant costs.

    As such you are one of the highest cost items of all and have to be paid whether there is "useful" (profitable) work for you or not.

    If you are a seller, they will screw you down and tie you up (to and for them) to the extent that it is all or mostly to their advantage and not necessarily to yours.

    Its potentially worse if there are several of you that are reliant on that buyer as they will play one against the other.

    That all seems "rough".

    Not too much different to selling or buying on eBay, or the local "Tool Store" or scrap metal merchant.

    FWIW, running a household and its budget is not much different to running a small business really - if it is any different.

    And so it goes.

    There are some very nimble, adaptable and creative, efficient people who post on this thread that will survive as will some of the entrepreneurs here.

    Did I mention all that "idle" money that is tied up in your shop which is depreciating very rapidly.

    There are times when we all buy stuff that we "want" but really don't need or could do without until some time in the future or until "something better" comes along.

    But we don't or "can't" wait.

    I am as big if not a bigger "offender" in that regard as many (most??) others.

    There are times that we have to buy something no matter what the cost at the time.

    Most times, an a "adequate" tool or machine etc. that will "do the job" has to suffice - and does.

    Buying anything "better" is often if not impossible to justify.

    Buying "stuff" that has a "name" and as such as "sentimental" value falls into that category.

    Its even worse if that "name" item is either not as good as you thought or remembered and/or was made by "others" and just "re-badged" to be the "name" brand - and all at exorbitant prices that is not dissimilar to taking advantage of people and "price-gouging".

    And it isn't just on HSM stuff, as it can include electronics goods where the "mark up" is enormous - on some but not all goods.

    Oil and petroleum products - sure.

    If you really want to see a "controlled market" from end to end and enormous end-profit/"mark-up" don't just fasten onto diamonds and precious metals.

    Try coffee!!

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by pete913
    They'll also sell you a set of 6 123 blocks for about $950. Guaranteed accuracy within .0001. So don't bitch about Chinese quality, or your perception of it when they'll sell you a pair of 123 blocks guaranteed to about half that level of accuracy for about $9.
    The issue isn't the "capability" to make quality stuff in china.

    It is the consistency with which it is made, linked to the complexity of the product.

    123 blocks are almost as simple as it gets, although the chinese $9 are the right size, they may have detail issues, like the threaded holes being unusable, etc.

    And, the "guarantee" is of no worth. WHO is the guarantor? An anonymous chinese source, who leaves the importer to fulfill the guarantee. The maker has ZERO responsibility.

    I don't see the set of 123 blocks being worth $950, but I think I am correct to say that they will at least be NIST traceable. They will have been verified before shipment, by a process capable of measuring to a much lower error.

    The $9 ones may be pretty much on size, but will be traceable only to Wong Li and his tape measure. Or his copy machine, where the worthless certificate was copied to be packed with your off-spec blocks. A few will be checked with mics, then the lot accepted as a whole.

    The $950 ones will be the product of a consistent process, aimed at the middle of the range, and EVERY ONE will be right.

    The $9 MAY "meet spec", but may be right on the edge.... +3 tenths on this side, -2 on the other, with a hump or two in between. And, of course, a number will be "out", maybe by a large amount......

    As items become more complex, the usual sources (the ones allowed to sell outside china) fall down. They so often have hidden defects, "get'r dun" remedies that the customer won't see from outside, etc.

    One chinese product that is very good is granite flats. Very simple, one surface must be very flat, all the others can just look good. Hardly ANY of them are bad.

    Not so good are things with lots of parts. Lathes, etc. Even X-Y tables.

    And, of course, when you can buy the complete item for LESS than the materials would SCRAP for here, then you KNOW that there is some funny dealing going on. That is pretty much the situation for some machinery of the Harbor Freight variety.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 01-05-2008, 10:12 PM.

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  • lazlo
    replied
    That's another great example of still made in the USA: Hermann Schmidt.

    The only HS tool I've ever be able to afford is the edge finder

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  • pete913
    replied
    Welcome to da new world order guys, ha. Seriously though, there are high quality machines, parts, tools, whatever, made in all corners of the globe, just as there are el cheapo rip offs of them. You get what you pay for no matter where it came from. One good example is LS Starrett. They still make some good products, but they also make some el cheapo junk. Market pressure, as simple as that. Don't get me started on Last Word indicators lol. Out of all the indicators Starrett makes, I find it difficult to believe they can even sell the dang things anymore. I'd take the absolute worst el cheapo Chinese indicator ever made over a Last Word test indicator any old day. 40 yrs old or brand new, I wouldn't own one.

    As an example of real American quality, Hermann Schmidt springs to mind. They'll sell you a very high quality grinding vise, for example, for around $720. You can also buy a Chinese copy of it for around $100. Is the Schmidt vise better? Sure it is, but is it 7 times better? Not IMO, and I've used both pretty extensively. They'll also sell you a set of 6 123 blocks for about $950. Guaranteed accuracy within .0001. So don't bitch about Chinese quality, or your perception of it when they'll sell you a pair of 123 blocks guaranteed to about half that level of accuracy for about $9.

    Alistair, just wondering if US products imported into the UK are any cheaper now than they were a few yrs back, what with the devalued dollar. Would seem to me they'd have to be, as last time I was over in your neck of the woods, seemed like my money was not worth too much compared to about 5 yrs ago.
    Last edited by pete913; 01-05-2008, 09:53 PM.

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  • macona
    replied
    Ahh, then there's lincolns. All the small machines sold in the USA are now made in Mexico! Lincoln has some foreign junk mixed in as well. Their small inverters are made in italy, the fume extractors are made in denmark. Well, the fume extractors are actually pretty nice just horrendously expensive when it comes to parts. I think they may have learned from Colchester on that one.

    In the USA to tell where your lincoln machine was made look at the serial #. First letter is where it was made. U= USA, i=Italy, M=Mexico, D = Denmark.

    Miller has messed around with a couple overseas machines as well. The old spectrum 1500D was made by Daihen in Japan. Nice machine. The Maxstar 140 was made by a company in the Netherlands I believe.

    I think now all the welders for Miller are now made in the USA, as well as Hypertherm. I believe Thermal Dynamics Plasmas as well. Tweco guns are still made here too.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    For the counter-example. Starrett....

    Once good, now headed down hill. Even Long Island Indicator has reservations about Starrett, so it's not just my opinion. Some things, like the "Last Word" have NEVER been that great (I like my British-made "Spot-On" much better)

    Other USA made things have already rolled down hill and finally been washed away to low cost producers, from whom you get what you deserve for bottom-feeding.

    I have no problem paying for quality, even US quality, it it IS quality. I prefer NOT to shop on price for many things (but I'll buy chip brushes from HF if I am going past a store, and need some).

    I absolutely refuse to pay high prices and get the same crap that I could get elsewhere for less if I wanted it. If I wanted a cheap chinese toolbox (I don't), I'd buy one from HF or HD, and not pay Gerstner more for the same thing under "Gerstner international".

    And I want to hit the bozos who tell me to do it "cuz its 'merican-made". First of all, most of it is only "merican" to the minimum amount required to allow the label. Second, if crap was 100% 'merican, it's still crap.

    I don't necessarily agree, BTW, that "we did this to ourselves". I claim it has been "done to us".

    No, there has been a 50 year campaign by corporate America (as distinct from the citizens) to wash away the idea of real quality, and replace it with a sort of 'interchangeable product" idea..........."it's the same thing, but we sell it for less because we buy so much volume".

    Eventually, the people are made to forget the connection between price and quality. Quality usually costs, but cost does not guarantee quality. People get used to the idea of same exact item, lower cost, and begin to buy on price if they can.

    The bait and switch comes when the lower cost philosophy changes to where it is no longer due to volume buying, but now is really due to damaging conditions..... shipping off all jobs to foreign places, cutting quality to the bone (and farther), etc, etc. That is what Wal-mart did. The bait and switch.

    That is where we are. And it is why you should NOT feel bad about not getting "USA quality" goods. If you DID you'd very possibly be disappointed, the quality left the building years ago. "USA quality" is now somewhere that "cheap Japanese imitations" were in the 1950's. Only Japanese were on the way UP, but USA quality is on the way DOWN.

    If it can be staked instead of welded or bolted, it's staked. If a cheap casting can replace a machined part, even if it will soon break, you get a cheap casting. if it can be plastic and still last the minimum warranty time, it's plastic. if it is unrepairable, so much the better, "they'll need a new one soon".

    BTW, people have ALWAYS bought on price...... The difference now is that the alleged "equality of quality" is fictitious, the lower cost items are crap, and there ARE no higher cost items that are NOT crap.

    The frogs did not put the fire under the pot, but they get boiled just the same.......

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Great example Wolf -- Wells Index are nice machines!

    They also have a spindle grinding service that's surprisingly cheap (for just about any spindle, not just Wells Index machines), and if you send your spindle bearings with the spindle, they'll grind the spindle in its bearings, and guarantee a 0.0002" TIR.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    OK, I have 2 words for you Nay sayers.....WELLS INDEX.

    And way up there I would bet there is no cheap illegal labor working on them.

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  • oldtiffie
    replied
    And???

    Originally posted by macona
    Lazlo, yeah, it has a big ass, but thats what hides everything that makes the EE do what it can (finish wise) and some say no other lathe can.
    Originally posted by lazlo
    Hey now, some guys like that (a big ass)

    Seriously, no argument here Macona -- the 10EE is one of the finest lathes ever made. I hope someday to have the shop space for one, but the thyratron drive system scares me, and I'm an electrical engineer What are the C16J's running for these days -- $500 each?
    Er .........

    Like this?

    See pic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Eunuch

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  • speedy
    replied
    I got it slightly(?) wrong

    Original plate states.
    Made in Australia
    The Lincoln Electric Co (Aust) Pty Ltd
    38 Bryant St, Padstow, NSW 2211, Sydney .

    The replacement states:
    Australian made with local and U.S.A components.
    The Lincoln.........
    SYDNEY, NSW. AUSTRALIA.

    Local components? USA components? sourced from where?? I guess it takes a bit of digging to discover. Nowadays it is the quality($) or lack of it($) that determines whether we purchase it or not. National borders, ie people, don't count for much in commerce; unless you are purchasing.

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  • oldtiffie
    replied
    Right on the money

    Originally posted by Alistair Hosie
    whay cant we get more good quality made in the U S A stuff here in the U K it seems very difficult unless you either pay way over U S prices or send off to the states and have shipping,import taxes etc added I wish we could get a lot more here or even some USA stores as I have been to the states many times and have always found the quality very good.

    Originally posted by macona
    ..........................................
    ...........................................

    As far as Colchester goes, have you seen the prices of parts??? At $1000 for a handle and $750 for a cross slide nut you could buy several SBs.

    There are still a LOT of good products coming out from every part of the US, just your not going to find them at Walmart.
    Thanks macona.

    That has - at last - both "hit the nail on the head" and - hopefully - brought the thread back to focus on Alistair Hosie's original post (copied at the top of this post - in case some "forgot").
    There are still a LOT of good products coming out from every part of the US, just your not going to find them at Walmart.
    I read a lot of forums from the USA as well as some HSM magazines.

    I can only agree with you as regards USA-made quality and creativity.

    From reading this and other similar threads, it seems that some don't want to pay Walmart prices either - it often seems to be "eBay or nothing".

    I am not against "shopping around" at all - I do it myself and encourage it.

    Some people have the time and temperament to get a "bargain" and "do it up" or "modify it to suit" etc. Great stuff and my congratulations to them.

    I guess your comment could be re-stated as being that there is lots of such USA-made stuff - presumably new - that is more than some want to pay.

    That is not a problem unique to the USA. It also applies in Europe, UK, here in OZ and doubtless, other places as well.

    "Used", "second-hand" ("pre-loved"??) USA-made machines and equipment are in short supply and are "high cost" items here. I suspect that to be the case in the UK as well.

    I also suspect that the supply of older "near-new" "Made in USA" stuff is dwindling and the price of scrap is increasing to the extent that a similar "supply shortage" and "cost/price pressure" will soon similarly apply in the USA as well. I guess that it happening in some parts already.

    That being the case, if "old" cost rises to a premium, so will "new" to maintain the "price differential" and the cost pressures to "buy Asian" may well increase as well for those with tight budgets or shortage of time etc.

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Originally posted by speedy
    Thanks goodness I have my Lincoln SP-170T; it must be good, it is made in Australia I have a made in USA cover plate if that will improve it??
    Wow, that's surprising -- I thought all Lincoln and Miller was Made in USA.

    I have the 175 Plus, which is Made in USA, but it's better than your Australian Lincoln because it has the official Nascar logo on it

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