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  • &^%$#@( India.............

    Got several 2MT "blank arbors" for making tailstock tooling, since I was lazy enough to not want to set up for tapers and cut them all, etc, etc.....

    Well, the arbors that came in are from "India", and NO they do NOT "blue up" right.....

    I checked with a Bison live center, and of course IT has essentially full contact everywhere.

    The arbors have good contact at the large end, and barely touched at any point at the small end.

    Yah..... you get what you pay for...... maybe. In this case, I bought the only type available from the vendor, so no I didn't bottom-feed.

    Just venting....... grumpy because I'll have to set up after all and grind these true if I want arbors any time soon.
    2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan


    It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

  • #2
    Have to agree with you. I bought couple of MT adapters from a vendor and they were a mixed lot. One was from Poland and was very nicely finished, even in the areas that weren't critical to its use. The one from India was okay where it needed to be and the rest looked like junk. In general, if it says made in India I'll pass.

    Glenn
    So many projects . . . so little ambition! Arroyo Grande, CA

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    • #3
      What do you do when you go buy a new 50HP tractor(model 5301) from you local John Deere dealer and you find out it was made in India? When the salesman was asked about this, his reply was that it was probably more American than most of their tractors, except for their hugh ones.

      A few years back Cadillac had a TV commercial claiming their cars were assembled from world class parts.

      Jim W.

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      • #4
        In this case, it isn't so much about country of origin, it is about the obvious fact that the folks over there DO NOT KNOW what a 2MT IS.................

        Angles and grinders don't know from nations........

        The finish is very good, the grinding is FIRST CLASS.

        But the ^%$#(*&!! ANGLE is WRONG.

        All I can figure is that this is "the nearest metric equivalent"............
        2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan


        It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by J Tiers
          In this case, it isn't so much about country of origin,
          If you say so. I have never bought any tooling "from" India that was worth the shipping. Either the metal used was a mix-mash of crap and of a poor finish or the dims were way off. Sounds like yer case was the dims. Quality control must have been over looked at that shop..

          And I dont even wanna say I am bashing the abilities of Indian tool makers. Just the same with Chinese tooling.

          The countries as a whole have the ability to produce exacting tolerance tooling. After all, they are both nuclear capable nations.

          Guess it really does come down to "you get what you pay for". Given a higher budget (income) those manufactures could prolly give you exactly what you want.. The short buck usually produces the shorter quality.. In yer case, unusable. JRouche
          My old yahoo group. Bridgeport Mill Group

          https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...port_mill/info

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          • #6
            Groz products are made in India. I have two Groz vises and they are both well made and well finished. They were very reasonably priced and do the job nicely.
            Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JRouche

              And I dont even wanna say I am bashing the abilities of Indian tool makers. Just the same with Chinese tooling.

              The countries as a whole have the ability to produce exacting tolerance tooling. After all, they are both nuclear capable nations.

              Guess it really does come down to "you get what you pay for".
              I think I did address those issues............

              Yah..... you get what you pay for...... maybe. In this case, I bought the only type available from the vendor, so no I didn't bottom-feed.
              The finish is very good, the grinding is FIRST CLASS.

              But the ^%$#(*&!! ANGLE is WRONG.
              No, it isn't a LOT wrong, and no, I can't actually feel it move. But it won't rub off a black marker stripe all the way down, but a Bison center DOES rub off everywhere.

              I know the T/S is right, as I had recently to do a clean-up ream on it, and I used a "Morse" brand made-in-USA reamer to do the job (with location via the H/S). I suspect that was correct, particularly because that well-made center is a perfect fit.

              BTW, India has come a long way in exports. I bought, for quite a substantial $$, a threaded chuck arbor several years ago. I was VERY annoyed to note it came from India, and appeared to have been chewed to shape out of rebar by a drunk squirrel. J&L got it back right away.

              These things are for all intents and purposes equal to Bison, EXCEPT that the wrong gage was used to check it.
              Last edited by J Tiers; 02-07-2008, 08:52 AM.
              2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan


              It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan
                Groz products are made in India. I have two Groz vises and they are both well made and well finished. They were very reasonably priced and do the job nicely.
                When I manufactured tapping machines, I bought hundreds of Bilz type quick change adapters from Centaur, which is an Indian company. I also offered Bilz, Emuge and Tapmatic versions but eventually went almost entirely with Centaur as we never had a single quality issue and never any complaints from customers with their tools.

                So, bottom line...just because it comes from India doesn't make it bad....but if the price is extremely low and from India...look out...

                http://www.centaurtools.com/products...ng/tapping.asp

                Comment


                • #9
                  I got a #2 Morse chuck adapter a couple years ago with a problem on the Morse taper. In this case it was clear that the taper had been ground with a form wheel in two steps and the infeed didn't match. That is, there were essentially two short tapers with a small bump at the juncture. I don't remember if it indicated where it was made. I complained to J&L who cheerfully refunded that one and I bought a Jacobs for a little more money.

                  It was interesting to me that they would use that particular process. It would be fast production, but really prone to error because the machine makes two moves, one longitudinal and one infeed that both have to be absolutely right or the taper doesn't match up as this one showed. Plus you've got the angle dressing of the wheel! Under NC I might be more prone to trust it, but for manually run production swinging the table for the taper would ensure that once checked it would be trustworthy throughout the run. Even a little corner breakdown on the wheel wouldn't hurt you so long as you could overtravel a little on each end.
                  .
                  "People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time they will pick themselves up and carry on" : Winston Churchill

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                  • #10
                    Quite a few MT adaptors are ground with a relieved portion in the center to eliminate the step situation as well as reduce the amount to be removed by grinding.

                    The first question would be "Is the taper in tolerance?" It appears it might well be;

                    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...d.php?t=151534

                    It is more than possible that both the TS and adaptor are in spec, but simply on different ends of it. The MT spec is pretty loose.
                    Jim H.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Milacron of PM
                      So, bottom line...just because it comes from India doesn't make it bad....but if the price is extremely low and from India...look out...
                      I just bought a Hertel ER-40, 50 Taper collet chuck from J&L industrial. I was suspicious of the country of origin, because the 50 taper adapter (which probably weighs 20 lbs) was a lot cheaper than the ETM ER-40, MT3 collet chuck I bought in the same order.

                      I was seriously annoyed when the Hertel collet chuck showed up, and it was clearly marked Made in India.

                      However, I was equally surprised, when I opened the box, at the excellent fit and finish of the part. I ran out to the shop and blued it against my T&C grinder workhead, and it's a perfect fit.

                      I was truly impressed. My experience with Indian tools up this point was the same as J Tiers.

                      But like JRouche says, it probably has a lot to do with how much the vendor is willing to pay for the item. If you pay them dirt, you're probably going to get a sh!tty product. If you pay them well, hopefully you have a better chance at getting a good product.
                      "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JCHannum
                        Quite a few MT adaptors are ground with a relieved portion in the center to eliminate the step situation as well as reduce the amount to be removed by grinding.

                        The first question would be "Is the taper in tolerance?" It appears it might well be;

                        http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...d.php?t=151534

                        It is more than possible that both the TS and adaptor are in spec, but simply on different ends of it. The MT spec is pretty loose.
                        For an MT2 it's around 0.0004 total along the taper.

                        Dunno how important that would be for drill tooling.
                        2801 3147 6749 8779 4900 4900 4900

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan


                        It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JCHannum
                          It is more than possible that both the TS and adaptor are in spec, but simply on different ends of it. The MT spec is pretty loose.
                          I don't understand that comment JC -- the Morse Taper spec is .7" large end, .572" small end, 2.562" length, and a taper of 0.04995" per foot. That doesn't seem very loose!

                          http://www.gizmology.net/tapers.htm
                          "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Jerry quotes a number of 0.0004" over the length of the taper. +- 0.0004" can add to 0.0008". What is the thickness of a magic marker mark?

                            Morse couldn't even get it right. They were trying for 5/8"/foot, but did not hit it on any of the tapers due to difficulty in making accurate gaging. None of the tapers agrees with any of the others.
                            Jim H.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JCHannum
                              Jerry quotes a number of 0.0004" over the length of the taper. +- 0.0004" can add to 0.0008". What is the thickness of a magic marker mark?
                              Yeah, that's surprising to me too. Doesn't seem like the taper would wring if it's off by 8 tenths in 2.6". Is the tolerance +/- 4 thou per foot, or 4 thou per foot (+/- 2 thou)?

                              Morse couldn't even get it right. They were trying for 5/8"/foot, but did not hit it on any of the tapers due to difficulty in making accurate gaging. None of the tapers agrees with any of the others.
                              None of the "Old School" tapers (Morse, Brown & Sharpe, Jacobs) have a consistent taper per foot, with the notable exception of Jarno, which no one used

                              I never did understand why that was...

                              I wonder about the taper gauge explanation -- the Advanced Machine Work book that JT has been recommending shows, step-by-step, how turn of the century toolmakers lapped taper and plug gages to tenths accuracy... The way it's documented in AMW, it doesn't seem like those accuracies were exceptional.
                              "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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