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  • #16
    That is an interesting question. It is likely that they did lap to tenths accuracy, but probably to "their" tenths, each shop having their own set of standards that were different from their neighbors'.

    It was not until the advent of Jo Blocks in the thirties that there was a convenient way to compare between shops. Henry Ford was quick to recognise the value of this and jumped on them like a duck on a june bug.
    Jim H.

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    • #17
      According to my Machinery's Handbook, the tolerance is:

      0.002 inches per foot.

      The notes state that the tolerance HAS to be such that a shank is wider than standard at the wide end, or a socket is narrower at the wide end. That makes it always tight at the wide end. (and makes it one-sided).

      That puts it at 0.0005 per 3", or around 4 tenths for an MT2, 5 tenths or so for an MT3, given a perfect socket.

      The TOTAL possible is the sum of the two, or 0.004 tighter at the wide end, and 0.001 clearance in 3" at the small end.

      As far as I know, there should be some "damage" to a marker ink stripe with only 4 tenths clearance.......on one side or another. Marker ink is a thicker coating than the typical thickness of "blue".

      Barring a co-incidence, I suspect the reamer (and now the socket) is correct at nominal taper within close limits, since it mates perfectly with a product from another country that was made at a different time. Presumably both were aiming at the "dead-on" setting.

      Therefore, another piece which does not even "slightly damage" a thick coating of marker ink at one end, must be presumed to have an error of taper that is larger than the allowable error of 0.002 per foot, unidirectional.

      And, indeed, the error is in the correct direction. just probably too large.

      I could probably figure out a practical way to measure it, starting with reversing the two tapers in contact with each other and measuring across them.
      4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

      Keep eye on ball.
      Hashim Khan

      Everything not impossible is compulsory

      "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

      Comment


      • #18
        Unless you have a "toolroom" quality lathe stick in the hole and forget about it.
        The tailstock alignment or its barrel travel is more than likely out more than that.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by J.Ramsey
          Unless you have a "toolroom" quality lathe stick in the hole and forget about it.
          The tailstock alignment or its barrel travel is more than likely out more than that.
          ASTOUNDING that you would make a blanket statement like that......... You have no idea exactly what I am intending to use these for.

          The problem OBVIOUSLY is not the slight error of position, but rather the looseness and the degree to which the taper will reliably HOLD.

          A loose taper will rapidly work it's way out, and even drilling produces side forces.

          Not ONLY that, but any tool that produces ANY pull-out force on the taper is EXTREMELY dependent on a good fit so that it does not simply flop out of the taper. A drill produces a pull-out force, at least when withdrawn from the work.
          4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

          Everything not impossible is compulsory

          "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by J Tiers
            ASTOUNDING that you would make a blanket statement like that......... You have no idea exactly what I am intending to use these for.
            LOL... I never ceased to be amazed at the conclusions folks jump to on internet forums... I guess many fancy themselves as Sherlock Holmes and just can't resist showing how "smart" they are...

            Comment


            • #21
              "I got several 2MT blank arbors"
              Those are the first five words in this thread, so machine them for a tang drive and forget about it.

              I myself would be to embarrassed to complain about an el cheapo part on www.

              Milacron,..........oops I meant Sherlock
              You jump to plenty of conclusions yourself.
              Last edited by ; 02-08-2008, 11:03 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by J.Ramsey
                Unless you have a "toolroom" quality lathe stick in the hole and forget about it. The tailstock alignment or its barrel travel is more than likely out more than that.
                JT's talking about it having the wrong taper, which means it won't stay in the tailstock.

                By the way Jerry, have you measured the shank for runout? If they botched the taper grind, there's a good chance the concentricity isn't good either...

                Your post had me worried last night because I bought several of those cheap Indian MT3 blanks from KBC Tools. I've already been using one, and that one is fine (doesn't wobble or spin in my tailstock). I just took the remaining two out of their boxes, and they blue-up nicely in my tailstock. They grind them a bit long so you have some meat before the blank abor piece, so you can't really measure the gage line, but a quick measurement on the small end reads .7795 (.778 is the MT3 spec). That's a close as I can measure without cobbling a taper jig.

                By the way, my MT3 blank arbors are in yellow/blue boxes marked "Bayard Industrial."

                Edit: these Indian MT blanks are really home-shop grade arbors. If you want a professional quality Morse Taper blank, you might consider the Collis blank arbors, but they're $45 each. MSC and KBC carries them. I think Enco used to as well...
                Last edited by lazlo; 02-08-2008, 11:04 AM.
                "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lazlo
                  JT's talking about it having the wrong taper, which means it won't stay in the tailstock.

                  By the way Jerry, have you measured the shank for runout? If they botched the taper grind, there's a good chance the concentricity isn't good either...

                  Your post had me worried last night because I bought several of those cheap Indian MT3 blanks from KBC Tools. I've already been using one, and that one is fine (doesn't wobble or spin in my tailstock). I just took the remaining two out of their boxes, and they blue-up nicely in my tailstock. They grind them a bit long so you have some meat before the blank abor piece, so you can't really measure the gage line, but a quick measurement on the small end reads .7795 (.778 is the MT3 spec). That's a close as I can measure without cobbling a taper jig.

                  By the way, my MT3 blank arbors are in yellow/blue boxes marked "Bayard Industrial."

                  Edit: these Indian MT blanks are really home-shop grade arbors. If you want a professional quality Morse Taper blank, you might consider the Collis blank arbors, but they're $45 each. MSC and KBC carries them. I think Enco used to as well...
                  Yea I guess I did just fall off the turnip truck.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by J.Ramsey
                    Yea I guess I did just fall off the turnip truck.
                    I don't understand your point J.

                    You told JTiers to just ignore the runout and use the morse arbor as-is. He hasn't even measured the runout: he can't get the abor to stay in the tailstock, because they ground the taper too shallow.
                    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lazlo
                      I don't understand your point J.

                      You told JTiers to just ignore the runout and use the morse arbor as-is. He hasn't even measured the runout: he can't get the abor to stay in the tailstock, because they ground the taper too shallow.
                      I never said anything about runout.
                      The OP started this thread as a rant about getting cheap tooling thats not up to spec.
                      You get what you pay for.
                      JST has a thread on the PM site about Morse tapers but its not a rant because he knows ranting or talking about cheap tools isn't tolerated on that forum. Lockie poo as Milacron puts it.
                      22 replies here 2 over there.
                      It amazes me that people EXPECT high quality for a cheap price and then they b!tch when the piece doesn't meet their expectations or specifications .
                      I would send them back if I didn't want to repair them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by J.Ramsey
                        I never said anything about runout.
                        The OP started this thread as a rant about getting cheap tooling thats not up to spec.
                        You get what you pay for.
                        JST has a thread on the PM site about Morse tapers but its not a rant because he knows ranting or talking about cheap tools isn't tolerated on that forum. Lockie poo as Milacron puts it.
                        22 replies here 2 over there.
                        It amazes me that people EXPECT high quality for a cheap price and then they b!tch when the piece doesn't meet their expectations or specifications .
                        I would send them back if I didn't want to repair them.
                        F that.... there is a big difference between a tool being cheap and being so out of spec, that i can't be used. J didn't say he expected anything, but i would wager he was at least expecting the blanks to be serviceable.

                        It amazes me how many people automatically assume cheap means poor quality, and expensive means high quality.
                        -Dan S.
                        dans-hobbies.com

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dan s
                          It amazes me how many people automatically assume cheap means poor quality, and expensive means high quality.
                          I'll agree with that, whilst i dont want to get into an argument, i have however done alot of work recently on a so called "Super Yacht" worth $4.5 million USD, all top dollar high end work and there is a shed load of poor craftmanship and quality work on her especially in regards to her precision parts.... Likewise i have worked on some "cheap" equipment that has been very well made. And if the company sold JTiers blanks that were sold as Morse Taper then that assumes no matter how badly made that they are in spec, afterall thats why the specifications were set out for int he firstplace.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dan s
                            It amazes me how many people automatically assume cheap means poor quality, and expensive means high quality.
                            JTier's original point, echoed by J. Ramsey and Don, and me is that you get what you pay for:

                            Originally posted by J Tiers
                            Yah..... you get what you pay for......
                            Originally posted by Milacron of PM
                            So, bottom line...just because it comes from India doesn't make it bad....but if the price is extremely low and from India...look out...
                            The Indian 3MT blank arbor is $7.60 at KBC, and the Collis 3MT blank is $48.90 at KBC. Which one do you think is more likely to meet spec?

                            3MT BLANK END DRILL CHUCK ARBOR
                            http://www.kbctools.com/usa/Navigati...fm?PDFPage=403

                            3MT COLLIS BLANK END ARBOR (1.3/4 BODY DIAMETER)
                            http://www.kbctools.com/usa/Navigati...fm?PDFPage=406

                            So yes, in general, if I'm buying a cheap tool, I assume it's poor quality, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. Most times I'm not.

                            Ironically, about a year ago JTiers bought a Chinese endmill holder, and was pissed that it wasn't concentric, the drawbar threads were out of spec,... He complained to the vendor and they replaced it with a Bison
                            Last edited by lazlo; 02-08-2008, 04:21 PM.
                            "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by sconisbee
                              I'll agree with that, whilst i dont want to get into an argument, i have however done alot of work recently on a so called "Super Yacht" worth $4.5 million USD, all top dollar high end work and there is a shed load of poor craftmanship and quality work on her especially in regards to her precision parts.... Likewise i have worked on some "cheap" equipment that has been very well made. And if the company sold JTiers blanks that were sold as Morse Taper then that assumes no matter how badly made that they are in spec, afterall thats why the specifications were set out for int he firstplace.
                              1. A yacht is a poor analogy to what we are talking about here. Multimillion dollar yachts are typically built one at a time, have extremely complex systems, and subject to harsh conditions and varied failures, esp when new. It's my impression from talking with delivery captains that most high dollar yachts have such complex systems these days that numerous failures are to be expected during the first few months, no matter who made the boat or how much it cost. But I suspect a cheap yacht, like a Bayliner 45, would have even more failures.

                              2. I doubt anyone here is assuming cheap always means "bad" and expensive always means "good" But the probabilities of higher quality are in the expensive camp's favor and probabities of poor quality in the cheap camp's favor. All about probabilities.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The OP started this thread as a rant about getting cheap tooling thats not up to spec.
                                You get what you pay for.
                                Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't..... Sometimes the high price just lets you rest assured that money bought you the most expensive brand label available. The fact that a 50 cent label may be all that distinguishes it from any other item of its type is something that rich yuppies don't want to hear.

                                The PM thread is a direct question concerning the larger-than-I-expected spec tolerance on MT tooling, and what it really means to usage. I didn't edit because of PM, I asked, and expected I might get an intelligent answer to, a technical question over there. Lots of knowledgeable folks there.

                                But the POINT is NOT a "rant" about cheap tooling......although I did mention "venting". If it was crappily made, I'd be actually less annoyed......

                                These are VERY WELL MADE. There is nothing to complain about as to finish..... fit is another thing entirely.

                                The ironic things are:

                                1) The one thing wrong with them WOULD HAVE COST NOTHING TO GET RIGHT.... just set the dial differently.

                                2) I bought the most expensive ones listed in the catalog.

                                3) They don't "fall out of the taper", quite...... They are "close" to being OK, but just far enough "out" that you don't feel justified in spending a lot of time making a tool out of one....
                                They appear to be out of spec, but I don't have a gage line reference and so would have to work to check them..... sine plate, gage blocks, 0.0001 indicator, some form of holder to hold them straight........ seems like too much work, when a simple comparison of "bluing up" seems to tell the story.

                                I really need a taper gage, but they are a tad expensive....... I could always make one...... at least then I could do a legitimate comparison.



                                Originally posted by lazlo
                                JTier's original point, echoed by J. Ramsey and Don, and me is that you get what you pay for:

                                Ironically, about a year ago JTiers bought a Chinese endmill holder, and was pissed that it wasn't concentric, the drawbar threads were out of spec,... He complained to the vendor and they replaced it with a Bison
                                Not quite.........

                                I bought, for what appeared to be a regular Bison type price, what I EXPECTED to be a Bison part. I had bought Bison before from same vendor, and was happy to pay the Bison price. It wasn't a $5 holder........ more like a $35 holder, maybe $40, don't recall.

                                Instead I got a cheezy item from china WITH THE WRONG DRAWBAR TAPER, NOT PER CATALOG DESCRIPTION. I have NO IDEA if it was concentric, as far as I recall I never measured it. Could be wrong, I seem to recall a discussion of concentricity, but I think that was a different thread, and I measured a Bison part..

                                I told the folks at the distributor that I wanted Bison and would be happy to pay for it. They gave me the Bison at the original price, instead of charging the difference. I was willing to pay the difference, I don't like junk.

                                So watch out for your inferences there, big guy, don't assume I am a cheap HF junkie who wants Collis etc quality for a flung dung price.....

                                By the way Jerry, have you measured the shank for runout? If they botched the taper grind, there's a good chance the concentricity isn't good either...
                                Dunno, would have to measure between centers, since there isn't any finish machined feature except the centers and taper.... this isn't a holder, but a "blank arbor", which you are expected to machine the business end of to your spec and needs.

                                I don't have an MT2 native spindle, only a T/S. So I'd have to use an adapter, and wouldn't know who was wrong without even more hassle.


                                BTW... What was that thing about a "tang drive"???? Means what?
                                Last edited by J Tiers; 02-08-2008, 08:25 PM.
                                4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

                                Keep eye on ball.
                                Hashim Khan

                                Everything not impossible is compulsory

                                "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

                                Comment

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